Coronavirus

[Islander]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56475807

This needs nipping in the bud and fast, there is not a hoping hell that majority of people will entertain face masks and social distancing for the rest of this year let alone “for years”.
Once control has been given it’s getting harder to get back, I’m no conspicuous but it’s getting harder to argue against when you have clowns like this given air time.

As much as I generally disagree with you, and as much as this sounds like a conspiracy theory and kinda feels wrong to agree with... I agree (in principal anyway).

I'm very much fed up of the so-called 'new normal'. It's not normal, social distancing and mask wearing should never, ever be considered normal.

Necessary? At this time, and over the past year, absolutely, 100%. However, humans are at heart sociable creatures (that's coming from a loner like me...), there is nothing normal about staying physically distant from people, and having to cover your mouth and nose most of the time. These are unfortunately extraordinary times, so both of those things have been vital in the 'fight' against Coronavirus, but they cannot be perpetuated forever, or even for years - once hospitalisations and infection rates are low, and once herd immunity through vaccination is great enough, it must be acknowledged that social distancing and mask wearing will have to start winding down.

 

[Dave]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56475807

This needs nipping in the bud and fast, there is not a hoping hell that majority of people will entertain face masks and social distancing for the rest of this year let alone “for years”.
Once control has been given it’s getting harder to get back, I’m no conspicuous but it’s getting harder to argue against when you have clowns like this given air time.

This isn’t a clown, this is a distinguished expert in her field. But the scientist tell you what will happen if you do certain things, she is just saying to prevent excess deaths you will need to continue those behaviours (which is true).

It’s up to society (and therefore politicians) if we do that or accept the excess mortality associated with it (my personal opinion is we should except some increased mortality to allow more freedom).

Calling scientists clowns for telling the truth isn’t going to help, and it’s not their decision what level of risk the country is happy to accept.

But to open up fully there will be people who die, and those people could be someone you love, as I say I personally think that’s a risk we should take but I don’t think we should lie to the population about it. Let’s be frank and say it out right:

 

[BigT]

Maybe it’s the way it’s reported that doesn’t help but of course there will be a level of mortality.
You drive down the road you except that comes with a level of mortality, you live in a house? A plane could land in it.
Live comes with a level of mortality, we accept that, if these scientists don’t want to be called clowns they need to be careful what they say and how that is subsequently reported.

 

[Dave]

Maybe it’s the way it’s reported that doesn’t help but of course there will be a level of mortality.
You drive down the road you except that comes with a level of mortality, you live in a house? A plane could land in it.
Live comes with a level of mortality, we accept that, if these scientists don’t want to be called clowns they need to be careful what they say and how that is subsequently reported.

A scientist should never have to be careful when telling the truth. As I say they are just stating the facts as apparent. Society makes the final decision on how they want to progress. Don’t ask the scientist to make the decision easier by lying about the impact.

I agree with you that it’s unfortunately a fact that people will die to allow more freedom and that is the path we should take, but I’m not going to tell someone not to be honest about the facts. This villain casting of experts needs to stop and the politicians and society need to take ownership of the decision and it’s outcome.

 

[Thameslink Rail]

It's just frustrating that the media will 'bend' the story a bit in whatever way they believe will get them the most money.

 

[BigT]

Equally the scientist in this case will know exactly how this will be reported, we are not dealing with silly people here.
And this is where it falls right into the conspiracists hands, drip feed, drip feed, exactly how this government has dealt with the pandemic, drip feed a scenario and feel the reaction, it must not be allowed that this is considered normal, ever.
Face masks and social distancing are not normal, never will be and should never be excepted in the long term, I would rather die of COVID.
They keep moving the goalposts further and further back, almost enjoying the power, there has to be a limit otherwise they will keep taking.
This in my opinion is a step too far, yes a necessity in the short term but not a price worth paying in the long term, we need our lives back.
Better to die living than be alive not living.

 

[Dave]

Equally the scientist in this case will know exactly how this will be reported, we are not dealing with silly people here.
And this is where it falls right into the conspiracists hands, drip feed, drip feed, exactly how this government has dealt with the pandemic, drip feed a scenario and feel the reaction, it must not be allowed that this is considered normal, ever.
Face masks and social distancing are not normal, never will be and should never be excepted in the long term, I would rather die of COVID.
They keep moving the goalposts further and further back, almost enjoying the power, there has to be a limit otherwise they will keep taking.
This in my opinion is a step too far, yes a necessity in the short term but not a price worth paying in the long term, we need our lives back.
Better to die living than be alive not living.

Unfortunately I think the scientists have been fairly consistent, certainly since the summer of 2020 when we became more confident in how the virus works. It’s politicians that move the goal posts and change the narrative every couple of weeks.

If folk are worried about government overstretch the only safety at the moment is the Tory party have a strong libertarian voice within it. Now libertarianism is not my cup of tea (only works for the rich) but they won’t tolerate too big an extension to the restrictions and although they don’t have the numbers in Parliament if the opposition support the government, they do have the numbers to trigger a leadership contest.

 

[Rob]

Good news! Results (not yet peer reviewed) from the US trial of the AZ vaccine confirm safety and effectiveness. In over 32,000 volunteers the vaccine was 79% effective against stopping symptomatic Covid disease and 100% effective at preventing people from falling seriously ill.

Bad news! The EU are now threatening to block AZ vaccine export from the Netherlands to the UK. Sounds like they want to keep all doses produced at this factory in the EU. However the EU signed their contract with AZ after the UK did, which is why the EU have had more supply issues. The article also states that if the EU were to block all vaccine exports to the UK it could stop us from completing the first doserollout by the end of July as planned. I get the impression that some EU leaders would be quite happy with this.

Strange news! After initially not allowing the AZ vaccine to be given to those over 65, France are now not allowing it to be given to anyone under 55! You couldn't make it up. Next up, France only authorises AZ vaccine to be given to people aged 57 who's name begins with the letter 'z'.

I do not mean to come across as anti-EU in any of my posts, as I am very much pro-EU and anti-Brexit. However I do belive there has been some right polictical tosh from the EU over vaccination all driven by panic over their own mistakes.

 

[jon81uk]

What I don’t understand is why we haven’t reciprocated the action France did to our ports in December and banned all truck drivers unless they have a negative test.

Truck Drivers generally socially isolate as part of their job, they work alone and I don't expect are a big source of transmission. Better to put the effort into slowing the spread within local populations. So even if a truck driver comes back to their family, they should not be meeting other households at the moment.

there is not a hoping hell that majority of people will entertain face masks and social distancing for the rest of this year let alone “for years”.

The whole British attitude to sickness needs to improve. Too many people get a cold and think its just a little sniffle and go to work, then the whole office is ill. Or they have to go to work at the supermarket infecting their customers because they don't get adequate sick pay. Imagine if those people who are carrying disease were wearing masks to slow the spread if the could not stay at home. We'd have far less cold and flu and other airborne illness anyway. In Japan it is considered polite to wear a mask if you are feeling unwell and you have to go out to stop you breathing germs onto others. Wheras Brits thing nothing about coughing and sneezing on their way to work.

Encouraging people to cover their mouth when ill and properly take time off and distance is a good thing for all spread of disease, not just Covid.

 

[Rob]

The whole British attitude to sickness needs to improve. Too many people get a cold and think its just a little sniffle and go to work, then the whole office is ill. Or they have to go to work at the supermarket infecting their customers because they don't get adequate sick pay. Imagine if those people who are carrying disease were wearing masks to slow the spread if the could not stay at home. We'd have far less cold and flu and other airborne illness anyway. In Japan it is considered polite to wear a mask if you are feeling unwell and you have to go out to stop you breathing germs onto others. Wheras Brits thing nothing about coughing and sneezing on their way to work.

Encouraging people to cover their mouth when ill and properly take time off and distance is a good thing for all spread of disease, not just Covid.

We had this 2 or 3 years ago in our office. There was a really nasty cold going around and pretty much everyone on our floor of the office ended up catching it with most being forced to take some time off because of how nasty it was. The terrible ventillation/air conditioning system in our office building did not help matters and is why it has remained closed for a year now. This obviously had a negative impact on the organisation as people were either off sick or in work sick and not working to the best of their abilities.

With regards to that BBC News article yestersay where it was said we could have to wear masks and social distance for many years to come. I could cope with the mask wearing in certain situations, it's not ideal but it doen't bother me that much. We cannot keep social distancing for a number of years in the same ways we have had it so far. Strictly speaking, even within the rules of 6 or whatever you were meant to stay distanced from anyone not in your household. That is not sustainable going forward, how are you meant to live a decent social life if you cannot socilise properly!? It has been absolutely necessary over the past year but going forward there has to be another solution. We cannot make staying apart become anything close to normal, because it is not.

 

[Danza91]

Truck Drivers generally socially isolate as part of their job, they work alone and I don't expect are a big source of transmission. Better to put the effort into slowing the spread within local populations. So even if a truck driver comes back to their family, they should not be meeting other households at the moment.


The whole British attitude to sickness needs to improve. Too many people get a cold and think its just a little sniffle and go to work, then the whole office is ill. Or they have to go to work at the supermarket infecting their customers because they don't get adequate sick pay. Imagine if those people who are carrying disease were wearing masks to slow the spread if the could not stay at home. We'd have far less cold and flu and other airborne illness anyway. In Japan it is considered polite to wear a mask if you are feeling unwell and you have to go out to stop you breathing germs onto others. Wheras Brits thing nothing about coughing and sneezing on their way to work.

Encouraging people to cover their mouth when ill and properly take time off and distance is a good thing for all spread of disease, not just Covid.

Understandable if you are ill, however they weren't specifically speaking about unwell people. Masks and social distancing for everyone for years to come is not a solution.

 

[jon81uk]

Understandable if you are ill, however they weren't specifically speaking about unwell people. Masks and social distancing for everyone for years to come is not a solution.

No, but in the broad situations where masks are mandated they aren't the more social situations. I'd happily wear a mask every time I go to the supermarket. But not to the pub with friends (although you can't drink with a mask on so they can't really be worn anyway).

With regards to that BBC News article yestersay where it was said we could have to wear masks and social distance for many years to come. I could cope with the mask wearing in certain situations, it's not ideal but it doen't bother me that much. We cannot keep social distancing for a number of years in the same ways we have had it so far. Strictly speaking, even within the rules of 6 or whatever you were meant to stay distanced from anyone not in your household. That is not sustainable going forward, how are you meant to live a decent social life if you cannot socilise properly!? It has been absolutely necessary over the past year but going forward there has to be another solution. We cannot make staying apart become anything close to normal, because it is not.

Bascically this, masks would help in the non-social situations, supermarkets, public toilets, underground trains, buses, etc. Whereas yes being in pubs/restaurants will not be best for mask use.

 

[Dave]

The issue with sick pay having seen it from a small business owner perspective (not me, but someone I know) is on one hand you don’t want anyone in when they are ill, but unfortunately on the other hand people take the mick a lot of the time.

They used to offer contractual sick pay well above SSP but in a single year two people took long term sick for really nonsense reasons and GP’s will sign anyone off these days. So now all new staff just get SSP as they couldn’t afford the time lost.

GP’s need a stricter set of criteria for signing people off sick and the government need to support higher sick pay for smaller businesses.

 

[Matt.GC]

I've actually interviewed people for jobs who have asked what the sick pay is like. Sick pay across many employers is getting worse as a trend because of all the skivers. It's sad because it's essential for people who genuinely need it.

If I owned a business, I'd have different sick pay for different conditions. Long term debilitating conditions, full company pay from day one. 2 weeks off for the sniffles, SSP only.

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[jon81uk]

If I owned a business, I'd have different sick pay for different conditions. Long term debilitating conditions, full company pay from day one. 2 weeks off for the sniffles, SSP only.

But SSP only kicks in from the 4th day off work. A lot of cold/flu illness only needs a week or so off. So that person faces getting paid for just one day, so they will struggle into work instead and infect all their colleagues, then more people need time off, or are less productive due to feeling ill and the "cost" to the business is actually a month of low productivity. Whereas if the first person actually took three to five days off to start with then they probably wouldn't have infected everyone else and the cost to the business is a week of sick pay.
If someone is off regularly then follow up with disciplinary action as needed. Bu the culture of coming into work and struggling on with a stiff upper lip doesn't help anyone.
At the very least wearing a mask (now they are becoming more "normal") would lower the number of people that the cold-flu is passed onto at work and on public transport when commuting.

 

[Dave]

But SSP only kicks in from the 4th day off work. A lot of cold/flu illness only needs a week or so off. So that person faces getting paid for just one day, so they will struggle into work instead and infect all their colleagues, then more people need time off, or are less productive due to feeling ill and the "cost" to the business is actually a month of low productivity. Whereas if the first person actually took three to five days off to start with then they probably wouldn't have infected everyone else and the cost to the business is a week of sick pay.
If someone is off regularly then follow up with disciplinary action as needed. Bu the culture of coming into work and struggling on with a stiff upper lip doesn't help anyone.
At the very least wearing a mask (now they are becoming more "normal") would lower the number of people that the cold-flu is passed onto at work and on public transport when commuting.

In an ideal world you are right but the fact is people do take the mick and it’s very hard to discipline someone for sickness related issues. If GP’s took ownership of the situation then it would be a little better but they sign off anyone for anything these days.

 

[Matt.GC]

But SSP only kicks in from the 4th day off work. A lot of cold/flu illness only needs a week or so off. So that person faces getting paid for just one day, so they will struggle into work instead and infect all their colleagues, then more people need time off, or are less productive due to feeling ill and the "cost" to the business is actually a month of low productivity. Whereas if the first person actually took three to five days off to start with then they probably wouldn't have infected everyone else and the cost to the business is a week of sick pay.
If someone is off regularly then follow up with disciplinary action as needed. Bu the culture of coming into work and struggling on with a stiff upper lip doesn't help anyone.
At the very least wearing a mask (now they are becoming more "normal") would lower the number of people that the cold-flu is passed onto at work and on public transport when commuting.

I used to think this way as well until I had to manage people and I completely understand your logic. But I've become so cynical over the years because of all the abuse I've seen. In my experience, I'd say a very small proportion of absence is genuine and this becomes apparent under even the slightest bit of scrutiny.

The employers I've worked for that have had a lighter touch approach on absence and sick pay have higher absence rates. In my experience, it's normally those in fair health that have a soldier on mentality and those in good health who are more likely to take free time off whenever they feel like it.

Generally, I wouldn't accept someone calling in sick for a common cold, yet they do. Whilst I've even tried to convince genuinely vulnerable people they should be shielding during Covid who felt guilty for being off and came in anyway.

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[Tibble]

I worked for a company a few years back and one of the office workers would call up 'sick' 1-2 Mondays a month. Then say 'Oh take it out of my holiday'. When she was questioned about why it always seemed to be a Monday she would blame it on 'woman's problems' to try and get out of it.

My main problem about sickness is how companies make you feel guilty about being ill. In my last job I was sick maybe once a year if that (lucky I know, I thankfully don't get unwell to a point of not working often) but I would call up and it would be 'you don't sound ill' like I am not going to put on a voice to call in sick.

I was once really unwell the day after my birthday. The company assumed I was faking it and told me to come in. I was pale as a sheet and was actively being sick. They told me to go get some lucozade and tablets and get back to work

 

[jon81uk]

In an ideal world you are right but the fact is people do take the mick and it’s very hard to discipline someone for sickness related issues. If GP’s took ownership of the situation then it would be a little better but they sign off anyone for anything these days.

But you can self-certify for under seven days so the GP wouldn't be interested. So the member of staff wouldn't get a sick note, or SSP for that one week off.

 

[shakey]

I always used to have about 3 days off every year when I was perfectly well, and I would actually go into the office if I was feeling unwell ( why waste a sick day being off when you are actually sick )

However I have now become a much more upstanding member of society and haven't had a single day off sick (fake or real) in the 11 years I have been working for the council. This may of course be something to do with the ridiculous holiday entitlement and flexi time system they have.

One thing that covid has probably changed for ever is home working (at least for office based staff). I have only been into the office once in the last 12 months and I cannot see me ever going back in more than once or twice a week even when everything returns to normal.

I think almost all office based staff will be working from home more often from now on, so in the future if you are feeling slightly under the weather then it will be simply a case of working from home and therefore avoid spreading germs in the office.