EU Referendum

[Wrexham_forever]

I don't get the job availability claim, the jobs are there but the people here find themselves above the lower class work. I had a job in a factory for a short time and most of the other people working there were eastern european commuting from nearly half an hour away for a minimum wage job with the minimum legal breaks and nothing else. They were always looking for more staff. This was in a town with a relatively bad unemployment rate. Yet if you spoke to anyone in town about getting a job in the factory, they turned their nose up it. I only lasted 3 months because I couldn't hack the shifts, but I was working with people that had been working the same shifts for 5 years. No complaints, no grumbles, they just got on with it and were grateful for the money.

This is doubly true in the NHS. How many migrants are working in our hospitals because the pay is awful, the hours worse, and the general treatment from the government is abysmal.

None of that's including the hypocrisy of this particular poll

That graph is typical of the 2 faced British public!



Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

 

[Rick]

Did anyone watch Cameron on Sky News?

 

[AstroDan]

People who think the EU is the reason we have immigration. What about the 150,000 people per year who come to the UK from outside the EU? Immigration is clearly an issue for the people of this island but perhaps the UK should get to grips with those coming from outside the EU before complaining about those within it.

A lot of the anti-EU agenda is fuelled by xenophobia. Without the institutions of the EU, our country would be far worse off. Think about all the rights that we have because of the EU!

 

[Rick]

People who think the EU is the reason we have immigration. What about the 150,000 people per year who come to the UK from outside the EU? Immigration is clearly an issue for the people of this island but perhaps the UK should get to grips with those coming from outside the EU before complaining about those within it.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think that argument is a little simplistic in its approach. Anyone entering from outside of the EU has a hard time doing so (I know, I've had to bring staff in from India, Pakistan and Canada). Many of those who manage to enter will have a job lined up - because they wouldn't get a Tier 2 Certificate if they didn't.

A lot of the anti-EU agenda is fuelled by xenophobia.

There's some xenophobia within the campaign, for sure - but there are also a lot of perfectly rational, run of the mill folk who are concerned about immigration and I don't think there's anything xenophobic about that.

BHS has gone under today, 11,000 staff - excluding their supply chain. I think it's fair to say that the bulk of those 11,000 will be shop floor staff who will now be looking for alternative employment at a similar level and nobody can argue that they will have an easier time finding re-employment with an open door immigration policy to 500m+ people.

 

[D4n]

We did ! God save the queen!

We don't need all these bureaucratic Belgium rules.
We don't need Europe
We can stand on our own
We are Great

Genuine question.
Are your posts in this thread intended as satire?

 

[DiogoJ42]

It annoys me that this has been turned in to uet another immigration debate. That's not what the issue is supposed to be here!

Still can't decide. The best argument I can think of to stay in depends on whether we'd have to start paying import duty on goods from the continent (I order a lot of stuff online). No one seems to have mentioned that one.
EDIT: just realised I've already posted this a couple of pages back. Derrrrr!

 

[bluesonichd]

People who think the EU is the reason we have immigration. What about the 150,000 people per year who come to the UK from outside the EU? Immigration is clearly an issue for the people of this island but perhaps the UK should get to grips with those coming from outside the EU before complaining about those within it.

A lot of the anti-EU agenda is fuelled by xenophobia. Without the institutions of the EU, our country would be far worse off. Think about all the rights that we have because of the EU!

As @Rick says. We have a choice of if those 150000 people can come and work/live in the UK. The other 150000 people we have no choice.
They just come.
Yes most will work. Maybe in the low paid jobs.
And they are willing to accept low payments. But it is the willingness to do this that is suppressing the pay level for everyone else. Keeping wages low for those already finding it hard to make ends meet.
I dread to imagine the influx and consequences of when Turkey and the other eastern soviet blocks join.
We should be able to have full control of our borders.
This is not the only reason why I am voting leave. There are many other issues of the travisty the the EU has become and evolved into since we joined.

 

[AstroDan]

The EU referendum is fuelled almost entirely by the immigration debate, and everything else is forgotten.

The fact that we have dozens, hundreds of things to thank the EU for in terms of law seems to be forgotten due to the immigration issue.

- Workers' rights (maternity, paternity, hours, entitlements)
- Protected status for products (protecting consumers from misleading advertisement)
- Public projects which are part funded by the EU / European Development Fund (museums, galleries, infrastructure projects)
- The Erasmus programme for students at University (allowing our undergraduates to spend a year in a partner University)
- Court of Human Rights
- Farming subisdies

To name just 6 things.

The EU is not simply an immigration allowance system.

 

[Dar]

- Farming subisdies

I don't think people realise just how much small to medium size farms rely on subsidies to survive. For example, I know a wheat farmer with a relatively small farm and I know that the global price of wheat is through the floor. He has to gamble on the future price just to hope to break even, even with CAP subsidies. The torrential rain a couple of seasons ago wiped his crop out and without EU support he would've probably had to sell up.

But nobody cares where their food comes from, they just care about people telling them what shape it can't be.

 

[BarryZola]

There wouldn't be such a problem with the free movement of people in Europe if people from most countries dispersed equally amongst all of the member countries. However, this is not the case. There are certain countries such as ourselves (a relatively small country) that are easily the most popular for would be economic migrants and this means that most want to come here. When they do arrive on mass from countries that pay relatively little in comparison, they are obviously very willing to work for what are lower wages in this country. As mentioned above, this allows firms to keep wages low as there is a surplus of available staff who "will do it for that wage if you aren't willing to", whereas if the available working population was smaller, they have no option but to pay the rate required by the population as there would be no-one else to do it. This keeps wages down on average, that's fact. It is historical fact that this has always been the way of things. As a long ago example, the people who survived the black death had a far better deal when working after large proportions of the population had been wiped out. A larger population means a better deal for employers and larger profits, instead of the extra money going into workers pockets as well. Then bare in mind that most of the lower paid migrants will not be paying much tax as they only start paying after earning over £11,000 a year. Where does all the cash for the extra infrastructure such as hospitals come from for this extra influx of people if they are paying relatively little tax? Then there is the issue of supply and demand for affordable housing. Again, history will tell you that it's a simple case of supply and demand, always. The more people here looking for dwindling relative available property means that you and your children (generally) will be competing with more people and paying more for whatever little is available. I'm pretty sure that the vote will end up with us 'Staying In', but I think it will prove to be the wrong decision in the long term for the people already settled in this country. We are best off getting out of Europe now, finding a party/leader who is confident about improving our place in the world through new trade deals etc, whilst watching the whole Europe exercise crumble like a pack of cards as we leave, followed by the likes of France etc who also get fed up of being the target nation for most economic migrants. Just my thoughts

 

[rob666]

BarryZola...
do you want to borrow my "enter" key...
I use it to often,
you could do with 2!

 

[BarryZola]

BarryZola...
do you want to borrow my "enter" key...
I use it to often,
you could do with 2!

To be fair, I probably should have borrowed it at least once

 

[DiogoJ42]

Please, for the love of Wardley, take Rob's enter key away from him!

 

[Rick]

I don't think people realise just how much small to medium size farms rely on subsidies to survive. For example, I know a wheat farmer with a relatively small farm and I know that the global price of wheat is through the floor. He has to gamble on the future price just to hope to break even, even with CAP subsidies. The torrential rain a couple of seasons ago wiped his crop out and without EU support he would've probably had to sell up.

But nobody cares where their food comes from, they just care about people telling them what shape it can't be.

There will be individual cases in favour of the CAP and against it.

We put more into it than any other EU nation and receive less out of it than any other EU nation, that doesn't sit well with some people when you look at the investment in our public services.

 

[Martin]

Some rambling and unstructured thoughts.

The EU didn't win us employment rights. Unions did. It's disappointing that even our unions believe this liberal revisionism where all our rights just appeared out of powerful people feeling nice, rather than often bloody collective struggle.

I'm absolutely fed up of the immigration argument. Don't blame Immigrants for low pay. Blame the bosses. We currently have built on about 2% of land, we have space, we have enough empty homes, it's the lack of social housing, the government not building more, and the private sector controlling supply to keep the prices up that cause the problems. The NHS is being driven into the ground, massively under funded and doctors being forced out, you're far more likely to be treated by an immigrant than be behind one on the queue at A&E. It's so much easier to blame the immigrants than the people really responsible. We've got some of the tightest immigration laws in the EU and we're planning on removing non-EU immigrants that earn under a certain amount (am amount much more than I earn), all this talk about 'open door immigration' is nonsense. I've no problem with immigration, I'd happily join Shengen. I've got far more in common with an immigrant worker than I do anyone in parliament, and immigrant workers aren't desperate to take away my rights and the NHS, I know who's side I am on.

I still don't know what to do. I don't like the EU, its structure isn't the most democratic and open (but I'm sick to death of the right wing leave people saying it's undemocratic as if people like Johnson and Farage are fans of democracy, and how much is it down to apathy and not the EU being shadowy?), thank god we're not in the euro, what they've been doing to Greece, as well as Spain and Portugal, is disgusting, they don't like the NHS. But it has benefits, Europe is more peaceful than ever before, we do have more rights secured through them and things like the ECHR which isn't a part itself but is connected, and I think people overlook the everyday benefits, the ease to go abroad, things like the plan to get rid of roaming charges. Coming out wouldn't free us of the red tape and extra laws regarding trading, we'd still have to meet them to trade with the continent. The EU also put a lot of money in to areas of this country that the government won't, like Cornwall, and EU money pretty much rebuilt Liverpool, where few forget what the British government did to it in the 80s. If we left the EU, the government would not invest in these areas. EU funding protects a lot of things our government would rather let die. We're going to continue to be closely tied with Europe, I'm not sure being a voice outside it will really help, we're not that big and important and there's potential for them to get back at us, and any dealing will be slowed down, like the case with Canada. We seem to do fine trading out the EU, Osborne seems to be in China every week selling the last dying scraps of our industry. A lot of people, like Farage, seem to want us to be the 51st state rather than an independent country. A lot of the independence arguments don't seem to be about anything tangible like the Scottish referendum, but more about some idea of patriotism that stands at odds with what the ruling and business classes are doing, like Osborne, and we increasingly live in a world where countries matter less and cities and businesses matter more, I'm not convinced what little Englander arguments have to offer beyond patriotism, which is terrible. Not that I'm saying this development is a good thing, far from it, but it is a thing. Leaving the EU won't actually stop this sinister assimilation into a globalised corporate dystopia, especially not when we have a government ran by the party who pioneered the process. Great seeing monarchists arguing against something that costs money, has unelected power and has questionable benefits for normal people. Great seeing people who voted Tory telling us the EU is a threat to the NHS.

TTIP is another big worry, it's absolutely horrifying, but our government will sign up to it either way. Some scary people want us in and when people like the IMF say we should stay in no one is fooled in to thinking they want us in for our own benefit and no one fails to see the threat there. Voting out is basically voting for the Tories to be less restrained in their efforts to destroy all our rights, freedoms and basically our lives, and that's a terrifying prospect. Sure, we can vote them out, but with their boundary changes, plans to cut short money, and the shift in the country's views etc, that seems unlikely to happen. But voting in its okaying the EU to continue doing everything terrible they're doing.

Both campaigns have been terrible, full of lies and scaremongering and I'm fed up of them. I fear that whatever the result is, whatever way many people vote, many won't be doing so from a well informed position because I haven't a clue either.

Basically either way we'll continue the slide down into the unbearable Randian late-capitalist hellscape we've found ourselves in, so we best pray the aliens come or something.

 

[GaryH]

Just one thing - all these people who bang on about the money the EU gives us.... lets consider this:

In 2015 the UK paid £13 BILLION to be part of the EU

We received back £4.5 BILLION

So, for this year, we paid out £8.5 BILLION (or £23 million A DAY).

Therefore, if we leave, and oh dear, we dont get all these grants from the EU, who cares, we will be £8.5 billion better off. I'm sure we could put this money to support the things that are currently getting EU grants, and still have some money left.

Its like me handing you £50 to be part of your gang, and you giving me £20 back for the honour, and a tenner in the back pocket for some projects I might want to get involved in. Better off? Nope.


Then there is the immigration debate. Im not anti immigration and I have no problem with people coming to live here provided that (a) they can support themselves and/or (b) they have employment lined up or are in a skillset which is needed and (c) they are not coming here purely to gain a NI number and benefits. Lets face it, 330,000 a year cannot be sustained. God help us when more countries join the EU. I am all in favour of controlled immigration, why not have a points based system, like Oz, it makes sense.

If the UK stays in the EU and continues with this level of immigration then estimates are that over 200 houses would need to be built A DAY for the next 10 - 15 years to house everyone. So basically the UK goes from being a beautiful place to live with beautiful countryside and green spaces to a concrete jungle.


Then the NHS and public services. So, we have hospitals and GP surgeries around the country - not able to cope with current demand, then we dump in another 330,000 people and still expect these services to meet their targets? Wheres the money coming from to pay for the healthcare for these people? Where are the new hospitals, new surgeries, new schools, new leisure facilities? Oh yeah, there aren't any. Instead we are actually having to cut these services because councils are having to find the money instead to provide housing and other services for people coming to their areas looking for support.


As for trade with the EU, who knows what will happen, but the scaremongering has been comical. Even to the point where people threaten that holidays will cost more! Given the state of Europe anyway, a lot more people are travelling West now for their holidays, so not big problem there. Anyway, trade agreements, trade, is Europe really going to stop trading with us if we leave? No of course not. And not lets forget we are a world trading nation, not just Europe. Some major businesses are saying that leaving the EU will make no difference to us. Given that we make sod all in this country anymore anyway, what are we actually selling to Europe?


Workers rights - wages etc. Again, not all these "benefits" to workers have come from Europe. If anything, being part of Europe has lowered wages. People complain that British people dont want to do some of the jobs. Well, not for the low wages being offered no. If hotels, farms etc. were unable to find someone willing to work for peanuts then they would have to improve the wage offered. Whereas with the EU people who have come from poorer nations are happy to work for peanuts. Farms have been prosecuted for example for employing migrants on below minimum wage, because they will do it. I had this conversation with someone the other day who argued that the cost of goods would go up. My argument was that I would rather pay a bit more for goods and services if i know the person at the other end is getting a decent living wage. Unfortunately, too many people just think of themselves thesedays, and want something as cheap as possible, regardless of the poor sod at the other end doing the work. So less workers willing to work for peanuts would result in the cost of goods possibly going up, but also wages going up for the workers.


Whatever happens, its going to be close. There are pros and cons on both sides. I'm voting out personally, although I believe the end result will be to stay in. I also believe if the majority chose to vote out, the government and Europe has too much to lose, and would fix the figures to stay in anyway. However, I am hoping the large majority of people voting out will be enough to show the government and Europe the level of discontent in this country with the way things are, and perhaps shake the EU into working with us to make changes to address some of these issues.

 

[Plastic Person]

I also believe if the majority chose to vote out, the government and Europe has too much to lose, and would fix the figures to stay in anyway.

There are lots of points in your post that I disagree with entirely, and a few others I think are reasonable. But do you really think the government and it's independent electoral bodies are planning to conspire to fix a national public vote?

Quality of life is important to me, both from a personal and national perspective. Once we leave the EU, that is going to dwindle, be it the degradation of worker's rights, or the lack of funding for green or redeveloped spaces. Saying that, I've been living between the UK and mainland Europe these past few years, and I find myself having less and less in common with this country and it's public attitudes, while also feeling very, well, 'English' when abroad.

 

[GaryH]

There are lots of points in your post that I disagree with entirely, and a few others I think are reasonable. But do you really think the government and it's independent electoral bodies are planning to conspire to fix a national public vote?

Yes. They did it when we joined the EU - they will do it again.

Quality of life is important to me, both from a personal and national perspective. Once we leave the EU, that is going to dwindle, be it the degradation of worker's rights, or the lack of funding for green or redeveloped spaces. Saying that, I've been living between the UK and mainland Europe these past few years, and I find myself having less and less in common with this country and it's public attitudes, while also feeling very, well, 'English' when abroad.

I'm just interested why you think this? Do you not think it may improve? Lets say that wages go up, and that immigration is controlled so the resources of the country can cope, so in turn hospital waiting times come down, public services are able to deal with the strain, and as for green spaces, well, we wont need to build houses absolutely everywhere to house everyone - then, to me, that sounds like a better quality of life?

Interesting you feel very "English" when your abroad. I'm Welsh but now living in England, though I tend to feel British when i'm abroad. My worry is that if we stay in the EU, would we continue to say that, or would we be so integrated with Europe that everyone, be it they are from France, UK, Spain etc. consider themselves European instead?

Not disagreeing with you - everyone has their own views on this, but one of the reason are voting to stay in is because of fear of the unknown. The point you raise about quality of life deteriorating is an interesting one....

 

[Rick]

There are lots of points in your post that I disagree with entirely, and a few others I think are reasonable. But do you really think the government and it's independent electoral bodies are planning to conspire to fix a national public vote?

I think the vote will be fair however - however, the outcome doesn't really mean anything specific.

If we vote to remain, no one really knows what that looks like - the EU is deadset on deeper integration, the UK isn't so much - but, there is no real option at the moment to have tiered membership to the EU.

If we vote to leave, that could be an infinite number of options. So so many!

 

[GaryH]

One thing that worries me however is that if we vote to leave, the government actually doesn't have to hon our the result and can refuse to make it happen. Its just a referendum, not law. The government could turn around a determine its not in the countries best intrests.

 

[Plastic Person]

I'm just interested why you think this? Do you not think it may improve? Lets say that wages go up, and that immigration is controlled so the resources of the country can cope, so in turn hospital waiting times come down, public services are able to deal with the strain, and as for green spaces, well, we wont need to build houses absolutely everywhere to house everyone - then, to me, that sounds like a better quality of life?

I don't think it will improve. Immigration is not currently the greatest strain on public services in the UK, the current government is. They don't want to invest in the NHS, or public services, or transport. Those services will all continue to decline even if all immigration were to magically conclude next month. The EU funds an enormous amount of services for the vulnerable, as well as investing in regeneration and redevelopment that are accessible to the wider public. When Manchester was bombed by the IRA, the redevelopment of the city centre was because of the EU. They pledged over £30 million, whereas the UK government at the time put forward just £450K, and that was with a much bigger pot to hand than now.

It's difficult to have a non-biased discussion with you Gary, as you have been pretty fixated on the issue of immigration for as long as I've read Alton Towers forums (well over a decade). It's obviously a huge deal for you, whereas I feel that even legitimate concerns in that area are overshadowed by tabloid scaremongering. But personally I don't think you'll notice any particular upswing in the quality of life in the UK if we leave the EU at this time.

As for integration, I just mean in terms of sense of humour, attitude, customs etc. Having travelled a lot, I feel the world is a smaller place now, and I've no real desire to 'feel' English, per se. It's just something you notice living abroad. But most cities - Berlin, Paris, Lisbon - are hugely diverse now anyway. I'm happy to be European with an English sensibility.