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Gardaland

I don't see the problem either. I see the laziness and the slight people might feel for the lifeless lumps of steel, but that's all it is. It's not world ending, it's just a name!

I'd be more interested if they had just copy and pasted Oblivion, trench and all, but this is a new ride, an evolution of Oblivion. The next step, if you will.
 
Dar said:
I don't see the problem either. I see the laziness and the slight people might feel for the lifeless lumps of steel, but that's all it is. It's not world ending, it's just a name!

I'd be more interested if they had just copy and pasted Oblivion, trench and all, but this is a new ride, an evolution of Oblivion. The next step, if you will.
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No. It's not. It's the worse cars, it has a tent shaped like a Cornish pasty, it's WHITE, the black hole is ORANGE, and it has absolutely no relevance to the original theme at all.

Yet they called it after TWO... not just one but TWO Alton Towers classics.

On an ALTON TOWERS enthusiast site, this is one place I fully expect to see utter rejection of this tripe.
 
TheMan said:
You're a very clever bloke Alastair.

You don't need me to point out how those points you've made have been absolutely obliterated in this thread.

Disney/Universal etc been discussed relentlessly with the sensible and obvious conclusion largely made, and the lack of creativity? As a musician accepting the rehash of themes and stifling new ideas of a near infinite nature for this?

Come on, you're a creative artist, you don't really subscribe to that view.

Also, in my opinion, by accepting this, you've negated your IMA Score point.
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I certainly haven't seen anyone "obliterate" the argument that it is a similar practice to Disney/Universal/Six Flags. Sure, all Merlin parks, as it stands, are very different. Clearly Merlin are trying to standardise them somewhat, with the same models of rides being installed in the majority of their parks - and in this case, the same theme. I am ambivalent towards the concept that it's a lack of creativity. Fair enough, it could be construed as lazy - but this is a dive coaster of a very similar design to Oblivion (although somewhat improved) - and in a park owned by the same company as that which owns Oblivion. Why shouldn't they use the excellent theme on such a similar ride? Indeed, to take the example of Six Flags - they have two coasters in two separate parks called Bizarro, both with the same theme - yet one is a B&M multilooper and one an Intamin hyper!

IMO there is no need for complete difference in theme (to a theme which would almost certainly be weaker) when it's almost the same ride.
 
The "Cornish Pasty" tent was already there before the ride was built (I think it housed an indoor horror maze)...

I also think Raptor is the best themed Merlin Wing-Rider... The location of it being on top of the hill helps the theme a lot, as does the plaza being surrounded by the coaster with the small swampland stuff going on... Granted though I didn't queue for ages in a cattlepen, so my perception of that queue is completely different... At least the queue interacts with the ride at points...

I'm not too against the clashing themes of the park and it feels much more of an amusement park than a theme park, indeed, it's a lot better than Heide's seemingly desperate attempts to have fully themed areas... Whilst area continuity is always preferential, I didn't think that they were trying to push fully themed areas to a degree, just a few small sub areas around certain rides... It's similar to Cedar Point's Frontier Town area having Millenium Force looming over it...
 
Alastair said:
Seems like complaining for complaining's sake here. Oblivion is an excellent theme, and has remained so for the 17 years of its existence. They're merely using this theme at another one of their parks, in the same way Disney do, Universal do, Six Flags do etc. It's a standard theme park tactic.
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See my earlier post for why it is completely different to Disney and Universal. You got to Disney for the Disney experience. Do you go to Gardaland or Alton Towers for the Merlin experience?

It is slightly more combarable to what Six Flags do. However all Six Flags parks, unlike Merlin parks, do share the same branding. There is a lot less individuality. And Six Flags want to use the IPs they have the rights to across their parks. Of course it is a cost saving tactic, and for a company like Six Flags that is sensible considering their finanical history. The same cannot be said for Merlin.

Alastair said:
I certainly haven't seen anyone "obliterate" the argument that it is a similar practice to Disney/Universal/Six Flags. Sure, all Merlin parks, as it stands, are very different. Clearly Merlin are trying to standardise them somewhat, with the same models of rides being installed in the majority of their parks - and in this case, the same theme. I am ambivalent towards the concept that it's a lack of creativity. Fair enough, it could be construed as lazy - but this is a dive coaster of a very similar design to Oblivion (although somewhat improved) - and in a park owned by the same company as that which owns Oblivion. Why shouldn't they use the excellent theme on such a similar ride? Indeed, to take the example of Six Flags - they have two coasters in two separate parks called Bizarro, both with the same theme - yet one is a B&M multilooper and one an Intamin hyper!

IMO there is no need for complete difference in theme (to a theme which would almost certainly be weaker) when it's almost the same ride.
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I'm not sure a shorter drop into a lot less of a hole is an improvement. It may have more after the drop but we all know the drop is the key element of a dive machine.

It does disappoint me to see so many people prepared to settle for this complacency by Merlin. I almost hope Merlin do something the same with Alton Towers, so we get a ripped off ride from Gardaland or Heide Park. I'd love to see if the same people reacted in exactly the same way.

We have been led to believe that Merlin have a lot of very creative people at Merlin Magic Making. John Wardley has told us many a time that Candy Holland is the best thing since sliced bread. Well if this is the case why are they not able to utilise their talents on big new projects like this? Admittedly they must all have had troubled and disturning upbringings considering that they are only capable of coming up with dark themes but that is besides the point.

Does anyone here think that Merlin should fully re-name and re-brand their parks? So we can have Merlin's Alton Towers Resort, Merlin's THORPE PARK Resort, Merlin's Gardaland Resort etc. Then they can really try and put their brand into each park. Each park could have "Merlin Street" as the entrance area where you can buy all your Merlin goodness. Turn right at the end to head to Merlin-Sector where you can find Oblivion, The Smiler and X. Or maybe you want to venture into Merlin Valley and take a ride on Nemesis or Raptor?

Ok I know that is extreme but you see my point. These Merlin parks are individual. They all have their own brands and branding. They should not be grouped together in a Six Flags manner. Alas it seems some don't mind if they are, and if some of us don't care then you can be sure the public won't. So ladies and gentleman, welcome to the future of Merlin theme parks!

:)
 
Rob said:
Does anyone here think that Merlin should fully re-name and re-brand their parks? So we can have Merlin's Alton Towers Resort, Merlin's THORPE PARK Resort, Merlin's Gardaland Resort etc.
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Don't forget it did used to be Tussaud's Alton Towers and Tussauds Thorpe Park, its just that when Merlin first merged/tookover Tussauds they didn't have as strong brand name, whereas everyone has heard of Madame Tussaud.
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thorpe-park.jpg



I agree that the re-use of a great theme is closer to Six Flags (they have 10 coasters called Batman!) than Disney but that still doesn't make it a bad thing. I think repeating the same at AT and Thorpe would be silly but when the parks are hours from each other it makes sense.
 
Oh I know Tussauds did it. Doesn't make me want Merlin to do it though. With the growth of the Merlin Annual Pass though it is probably inevitable.

:)
 
Rob said:
I'm not sure a shorter drop into a lot less of a hole is an improvement. It may have more after the drop but we all know the drop is the key element of a dive machine.

It does disappoint me to see so many people prepared to settle for this complacency by Merlin. I almost hope Merlin do something the same with Alton Towers, so we get a ripped off ride from Gardaland or Heide Park. I'd love to see if the same people reacted in exactly the same way.

We have been led to believe that Merlin have a lot of very creative people at Merlin Magic Making. John Wardley has told us many a time that Candy Holland is the best thing since sliced bread. Well if this is the case why are they not able to utilise their talents on big new projects like this? Admittedly they must all have had troubled and disturning upbringings considering that they are only capable of coming up with dark themes but that is besides the point.

Does anyone here think that Merlin should fully re-name and re-brand their parks? So we can have Merlin's Alton Towers Resort, Merlin's THORPE PARK Resort, Merlin's Gardaland Resort etc. Then they can really try and put their brand into each park. Each park could have "Merlin Street" as the entrance area where you can buy all your Merlin goodness. Turn right at the end to head to Merlin-Sector where you can find Oblivion, The Smiler and X. Or maybe you want to venture into Merlin Valley and take a ride on Nemesis or Raptor?

Ok I know that is extreme but you see my point. These Merlin parks are individual. They all have their own brands and branding. They should not be grouped together in a Six Flags manner. Alas it seems some don't mind if they are, and if some of us don't care then you can be sure the public won't. So ladies and gentleman, welcome to the future of Merlin theme parks!

:)
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See what your describing and what has actually happened are not the same thing. If Merlin took Raptor and carbon copied the whole thing (layout, theme, name, logo) at ANY park I would be against it. Here we have a different layout, different (though similar) theme. The ONLY copy is the name (and a similar logo).

If SW8 was its own ride and theme but was called Raptor I would think the same as I do with this... It's a bit lazy but ultimately won't affect my enjoyment. The exception to this is copying the same brands in the same country.

It's just not that big a deal, as very little has actually been copied.
 
Dave said:
See what your describing and what has actually happened are not the same thing. If Merlin took Raptor and carbon copied the whole thing (layout, theme, name, logo) at ANY park I would be against it. Here we have a different layout, different (though similar) theme. The ONLY copy is the name (and a similar logo).

If SW8 was its own ride and theme but was called Raptor I would think the same as I do with this... It's a bit lazy but ultimately won't affect my enjoyment. The exception to this is copying the same brands in the same country.

It's just not that big a deal, as very little has actually been copied.
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The only thing I described that has not actually happened was a hypothetical and extreme situation of Merlin theme parks all being identical.

It cannot be denied that this Oblivion is a rip off of Towers' Oblivion. It cannot be denied that it demonstrates a lack of creativity from Merlin. That is what I find disappointing and frustrating.

Hypothetical scenario and question. SW8 is a B&M Wing Coaster going by the name of "Raptor: The Mammut". It has a similar but longer layout to Raptor at Gardaland. It is themed around a much more futuristic alein attack. It has a similar but more futurisic logo to Raptor at Gardaland. Both the track and supports are white, but the trains are near identical to Raptor's. Are you pleased with SW8?

I know that the above scenario is extremely unlikely.

:)
 
Rob said:
Hypothetical scenario and question. SW8 is a B&M Wing Coaster going by the name of "Raptor: The Mammut". It has a similar but longer layout to Raptor at Gardaland. It is themed around a much more futuristic alein attack. It has a similar but more futurisic logo to Raptor at Gardaland. Both the track and supports are white, but the trains are near identical to Raptor's. Are you pleased with SW8?

I know that the above scenario is extremely unlikely.

:)
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Isn't what you just described basically Swarm at Thorpe Park? I've always thought of Raptor & Swarm as the same ride, different name and slightly different layout.
 
Had to double post for this quote.

Rob said:
See my earlier post for why it is completely different to Disney and Universal. You got to Disney for the Disney experience. Do you go to Gardaland or Alton Towers for the Merlin experience?
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Exactly. It's so obvious, and coming from me this should hold even more weight, disagreeing with this DOES seem like just wanted to debate for debating's sake rather than making salient points. I find it disappointing on a forum as educated, knowledgeable, and high quality as this that we'd be having this discussion continually. It's like "Theme Park 101".
Rob said:
It is slightly more combarable to what Six Flags do. However all Six Flags parks, unlike Merlin parks, do share the same branding. There is a lot less individuality. And Six Flags want to use the IPs they have the rights to across their parks. Of course it is a cost saving tactic, and for a company like Six Flags that is sensible considering their finanical history. The same cannot be said for Merlin.
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Precisely. They'd pay a fortune to use the names, why the heck wouldn't you rinse them? You pay for an IP like Batman you use it. Incidentally, it's not like they're themed either, it's just a freaking name! It's Batman, it flies around, job done.... we want THAT for our parks? Give it a rest those who are detracting from our points. It's ridiculous. Can't even believe it's being debated.

Rob said:
I'm not sure a shorter drop into a lot less of a hole is an improvement. It may have more after the drop but we all know the drop is the key element of a dive machine.
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This is where your post started to make me chuckle, I could sense you winding up for a Man style rant here... I've said many times, I'd absolutely hate it if Oblivion had ANYTHING else after that drop, why would you? You wouldn't. It's the perfect ride of it's type. Big. Imposing. Brilliant theatre. It's just not beatable. They made the best one FIRST. That's why it should have been left well, well alone.
Rob said:
It does disappoint me to see so many people prepared to settle for this complacency by Merlin. I almost hope Merlin do something the same with Alton Towers, so we get a ripped off ride from Gardaland or Heide Park. I'd love to see if the same people reacted in exactly the same way.
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I know you don't mean that, but I take your point, and I too share your frustration with this - WHY would you want to stifle creativity in this industry and do anything other than stand against this kind of lazy, half arsed approach to theme design? Why bother having imagineers anymore?

If this is the attitude, where is the next John Wardley coming from. I find this part of the counter argument IDIOTIC to the extreme.
Rob said:
We have been led to believe that Merlin have a lot of very creative people at Merlin Magic Making. John Wardley has told us many a time that Candy Holland is the best thing since sliced bread. Well if this is the case why are they not able to utilise their talents on big new projects like this? Admittedly they must all have had troubled and disturning upbringings considering that they are only capable of coming up with dark themes but that is besides the point.
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Hahahahaha. Enough said.
Rob said:
Does anyone here think that Merlin should fully re-name and re-brand their parks? So we can have Merlin's Alton Towers Resort, Merlin's THORPE PARK Resort, Merlin's Gardaland Resort etc. Then they can really try and put their brand into each park. Each park could have "Merlin Street" as the entrance area where you can buy all your Merlin goodness. Turn right at the end to head to Merlin-Sector where you can find Oblivion, The Smiler and X. Or maybe you want to venture into Merlin Valley and take a ride on Nemesis or Raptor?
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STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHP. It's this kind of disturbing thought that probably lead the creative teams to only think up dark disturbing ideas in the first place. Give me nightmares that will!
Rob said:
Ok I know that is extreme but you see my point. These Merlin parks are individual. They all have their own brands and branding. They should not be grouped together in a Six Flags manner. Alas it seems some don't mind if they are, and if some of us don't care then you can be sure the public won't. So ladies and gentleman, welcome to the future of Merlin theme parks!
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You know what Rob, is it that extreme though? Is that not exactly the direction they're taking? It's not like other theme park operators in the UK have not mentioned how Merlin are EVERYWHERE, plastering their logo over everything in sight for either marketing or sales (no, NOT just Mandy), yours is NOT that extreme because in real business terms, that's precisely what they're doing.
 
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Thankfully, I don't think Alton Towers is at risk of half-clones.

If there's one thing that can be said about Alton Towers more than any other Merlin park - and many other theme parks full stop - it's that they do manage to get the unique stuff.
 
TheMan said:
Yeah.

Went down well didn't it.
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Went down very well with enthusiasts actually.

As for @Rob example I would be miffed MORE because Thorpe already have a wing rider. However putting that aside I would think it was lazy but if the coaster was good and theming well done then I wouldn't be distraught.
 
Dave said:
Went down very well with enthusiasts actually.
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It did? I must have missed that.

I seem to recall quite a lot of posts on the theme being too dark, the queue being horrific, and the ride itself being dull and reminiscent of B&M of late. Uninspiring.

There are one or two I know who like it.

Just to prove I am not being an ogre on this subject, I am one of the ones who DOES like the ride... hence I know how many discussions I have with many who find it DULL.
 
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