Jb85
TS Member
Yet still created 100 pages of chat. Amazing for something that hasn't really moved passed an idea
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London Entertainment Resort: All Discussion
- Thread starter Spark
- Start date
Craig
TS Administrator
It is pretty crazy to have so many pages when ultimately very little happened, but I can't deny it's been a fun ride in a way, despite the disappointment of seeing nothing come of it. The forum would be boring if we all agreed on everything, and with hindsight we've all made points that we've reconsidered our views over.
So @Matt N I wouldn't be so hard on yourself, you learn from experience and perhaps might be more aware should any future fantasy projects crop up. Many of us have aged into being terrible pessimists over the years, but then again that's not without good reason given the things that either haven't materialised or have been hideously watered down in our time within the community.
What I will say though, is your endless positivity for the project spurred me into going down one hell of a mission at times to provide evidence to counter your posts. It certainly flexed the old research muscles, and probably had me realising what a mess this project was long before I would've otherwise if I wasn't having to make those counterpoints!
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
Are you alluding to something good that's due to happen with the project at the start of next year, out of interest?
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
I wait with an open mind! I would certainly be very happy to see something good come in early 2023, and I have not entirely dismissed the project by any means.
However, I personally feel that it does not currently look very likely to materialise unless some significant obstacles are cleared and/or circumstances change considerably. As sad as I am to say it, it does currently feel like the doubters may well be proven right.
That's not me raining on anyone's parade for the sake of it, that's simply me trying to be realistic given the current state of affairs. The proposal has limited local support, the site has been designated an SSSI which has made building upon it an awful lot harder, two of the main IP backers (BBC and ITV) have withdrawn, certain public transport links that the project heavily relied upon have now either been cancelled, delayed or are hanging in the balance themselves... I must say that the prospects of materialisation don't look brilliant at present, if I'm being honest.
Ultimately, the thing that would get this park built (or at very least, set the wheels in motion for significant progress) is obtaining planning permission, and I have limited confidence that the project would be granted planning permission in its present form. The site's SSSI designation will likely cause a world of pain for anyone wanting to build there, and with the locals now being largely opposed to the project, the planners can't even override environmental concerns on the basis of overwhelming local support or anything.
QTXAdsy
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Black Hole
No real difference TBH, the forum is still boring when you think about it as all we do is complain about mostly the same things over and over again!
So either that or agree on everything going on...we can't win.The Nemesis and Duel overhauls have been quite shocking exceptions in all this in terms of positivity so yeah, will we see more I wonder?
Craig
TS Administrator
I think critical would be a better way of describing views on any forum, rather than outright negative. Most of us on here have visited a hell of a lot of parks across the globe, many have worked in the industry and we have a passion for seeing things done well. It's only natural that we call things out where that isn't the case, and quite often discuss ways that things that could be done better. You've already pointed out a couple of topics where there's been a lot of positivity, and that's because there's been hints toward some hard work being put into them. With this topic, there was a pretty positive initial response, that enthusiasm only wained with the multiple delays to it - much like the public's reaction did, including Dartford's MP as time went on too.
Sure, the size of topics can result in things being gone over a few times over. But that's conversations in real life too, we cover old ground if we don't remember something from a few weeks or months ago. People also don't necessarily read every page and so drop in and out of the conversation too. It's much better to have a free flowing topic that's self guided by the forum's members than it is to have a couple of team members constantly run things how only they see fit.
Anyway, back on the subject on London Resort, if updates are coming in 2023 then I look forward to seeing them (and critiquing accordingly
). As an enthusiast, I'd absolutely love to see something along the lines of the original plans come to fruition. But, my common sense head still sees the economic and planning hurdles as ridiculously difficult to resolve, and I really do feel for those local businesses who have been impacted so heavily by this whole situation dragging on. I hope for everyone's sake there's some certainty coming one way or another for them as soon as possible.
Sure, the size of topics can result in things being gone over a few times over. But that's conversations in real life too, we cover old ground if we don't remember something from a few weeks or months ago. People also don't necessarily read every page and so drop in and out of the conversation too. It's much better to have a free flowing topic that's self guided by the forum's members than it is to have a couple of team members constantly run things how only they see fit.
Anyway, back on the subject on London Resort, if updates are coming in 2023 then I look forward to seeing them (and critiquing accordingly
). As an enthusiast, I'd absolutely love to see something along the lines of the original plans come to fruition. But, my common sense head still sees the economic and planning hurdles as ridiculously difficult to resolve, and I really do feel for those local businesses who have been impacted so heavily by this whole situation dragging on. I hope for everyone's sake there's some certainty coming one way or another for them as soon as possible.
QTXAdsy
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Black Hole
...some of us haven't been lucky in that respect for those mentioned and can't really compare to how things are done, I'm pretty much a country bumpkin.
But yeah, moving on and staying on topic and London Resort...
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
The frustrating thing is that I'm not sure that they have that many issues aside from the issue of obtaining planning permission. On the issues raised surrounding money and the like, I maintain much of my stance from 2 years ago.
They claim that they have an investor on board to fund the project fully within the planning permission, which in theory solves the money issue. Yes, I accept previously made points about KEH (the main publicly declared investor) and their less than stellar previous record, but this investor may well be a different investor entirely to KEH, so I'd be hesitant to make any pre-judgements about their ability to fund the project without knowing who they are.
Back in 2020, they were starting to sign construction contracts and the like, so some firm stuff was arguably beginning to happen. I'll admit that I'm a tad unconvinced by how vague some of the concept art was, but if you're signing contracts and seeking out suppliers, you are bound to have a fairly firm idea of what you wish to build, so I had hope that these vague drawings were simply placeholders to hide what they were actually planning to build.
Yes, things have taken a very long time up to this point, but I thought that was simply down to the general nature of building large infrastructure projects in the UK. Things like HS2 and Crossrail also took ages (HS2 took 11 years to even get planning permission, apparently), yet HS2 is now very much happening and Crossrail has already opened its first phase, so I assumed that any large project like this in the UK would almost inevitably take ages and ages to come to fruition.
I will, however, concede that some of the forecasts and numbers don't quite add up, in my view, which I don't think I realised 2 years ago. For instance:
They claim that they have an investor on board to fund the project fully within the planning permission, which in theory solves the money issue. Yes, I accept previously made points about KEH (the main publicly declared investor) and their less than stellar previous record, but this investor may well be a different investor entirely to KEH, so I'd be hesitant to make any pre-judgements about their ability to fund the project without knowing who they are.
Back in 2020, they were starting to sign construction contracts and the like, so some firm stuff was arguably beginning to happen. I'll admit that I'm a tad unconvinced by how vague some of the concept art was, but if you're signing contracts and seeking out suppliers, you are bound to have a fairly firm idea of what you wish to build, so I had hope that these vague drawings were simply placeholders to hide what they were actually planning to build.
Yes, things have taken a very long time up to this point, but I thought that was simply down to the general nature of building large infrastructure projects in the UK. Things like HS2 and Crossrail also took ages (HS2 took 11 years to even get planning permission, apparently), yet HS2 is now very much happening and Crossrail has already opened its first phase, so I assumed that any large project like this in the UK would almost inevitably take ages and ages to come to fruition.
I will, however, concede that some of the forecasts and numbers don't quite add up, in my view, which I don't think I realised 2 years ago. For instance:
- They claim to be seeking 6.5 million guests per annum from the beginning. Getting 6.5 million guests from day 1 does seem like a rather tall order; even Disney have managed this in fairly few cases, and they're Disney. Somewhere around 3-4 million in the initial years, with that 6.5 million being attained when the Resort was complete with all gates and had been running with everything there for a bit, seems feasible depending on what was to be built, but the visitor targets they proposed seem rather bold. 12.5 million for the completed resort would put them roughly on a level peg with Disneyland Paris, which seems like a very unlikely figure to hit unless they had a big hitter of an IP up their sleeves.
- They also claim to be seeking for 40% of their visitors to come from abroad. With the previously proposed IPs, I have doubts that the resort would have that kind of foreign appeal. Many of the IPs, such as BBC and ITV, are quite uniquely British in appeal, and I'd argue that Paramount does not exactly have any big hitters IP-wise.
- The resort is proposed to contain 3,500 hotel rooms, which is a huge number (for comparison, Alton Towers has 694). Many of these are slated to exist from day 1. That to me gives off similar tones to Disneyland Paris, where the resort was built with far too many hotels for its needs and ended up having to shut many of them for the first few years due to low occupancy and high running costs.
- On the flip side, the number of parking spaces sounds very low. The Resort is proposed to have 10,000 parking spaces, yet they're expecting 53,000 visitors on peak days. Assuming everyone travelled by car, they're hoping for an average of 5.3 people per car, which seems far too high in my view. I'm very aware that the developers are keen to emphasise the proposal's green credentials and public transport links, so they may be expecting a certain percentage of visitors to come via public transport, but I'd wager that most visitors would still drive to an attraction like this, and 10,000 parking spaces sounds somewhat under-equipped to handle 53,000 guests, in my opinion.
- The developers are proposing a 2025 opening (or at least were when I last heard the opening date referenced). Given the current state of affairs, this seems highly, highly unlikely to be met even if planning permission is gained. Based on the proposed timeline of the previous GDO application, it would take 18 months from the date of acceptance for a verdict to be reached, so even if a new GDO application was filed and accepted tomorrow (highly unlikely), that would already take us to mid-2024. The chances of Phase 1 being built in 6-18 months would be slim to none, in my view.
- The developers are relying on public transport links that either haven't been confirmed or have been cancelled in some cases, which does throw their transport calculations into question somewhat.
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Matt.GC
TS Member
Not sure what all the apologies are about for voicing an opinion, even if many of us did think that opinion was nuts. Everyone's entitled to an opinion and everyone else is entitled to say exactly why they think that's crazy. Don't stop having opinions though, I'm not sure who you're apologising to and why Matt?
On the subject of opinions though, mine is always expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed. World is full of liars and swindlers who want money off you and to do you harm and nothing else. Be skeptical and trust no one. If it sounds too good to be true (like this whole fiasco) then it probably is.
On the subject of opinions though, mine is always expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed. World is full of liars and swindlers who want money off you and to do you harm and nothing else. Be skeptical and trust no one. If it sounds too good to be true (like this whole fiasco) then it probably is.
Jb85
TS Member
Sorry to be blunt, but I just don't believe you.
This deceased equine is well and truly flogged.
Evidence required, too many false promises have already been made.
Danny
TS Contributor
- Favourite Ride
- Steel Vengeance
A press release has been distributed this morning relating to amended plans next year.
The carousel of chaos, unfortunately, continues.
The carousel of chaos, unfortunately, continues.
Skyscraper
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
At this rate, by the time it finally opens most of us will be too old to do the coasters.
Alastair
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Rise of the Resistance
And so begins the conversion from giant theme park to "leisure development" complex. i.e. a GoApe, a multiplex cinema, a poorly themed mini-golf course and a "multi-use" sports arena.
jon81uk
TS Member
and the cinema and mini golf already exist down the road at Bluewater.And so begins the conversion from giant theme park to "leisure development" complex. i.e. a GoApe, a multiplex cinema, a poorly themed mini-golf course and a "multi-use" sports arena.
