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SeaWorld Orlando: General Discussion

We have this argument on a quarterly basis, and each time I feel like I come in with a more nuanced approach, and each time I feel like I've been banging my head on the side of the tank itself.

The very fact that you make these arguments from the position of "we", as if you are a spokesperson or employee of Seaworld Parks, indicates that it's not really worth the effort at this point. It's difficult to engage with that kind of tribalism when it involves nationality, race or sexuality, never mind when someone predominantly identifies as 'Man Who Really Likes Seaworld'.

In conclusion, just as you will doggedly stick to your thesis, I will stick to mine. That being: People do not like seeing massive whales jumping out of disproportionately small pools as much as they used to, due to changing public attitudes towards zoology and entertainment. I don't know what Seaworld should do about that, but it's certainly not some grand conspiracy.
 
MakoMania said:
Just out of interest, what is it that makes you hate us so much? Blackfish?
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"Us"?
...
"US"???

AHA! I knew it! You are on their payroll somehow!

The disinformation shills have infiltrated our forum, guys. From now on, believe nothing unless you know the poster personally. :tinfoil:
 
@DiogoJ42 & @Plastic Person, I volunteer (unpaid) every summer at SeaWorld, most recently this summer in Texas. I know the parks, their policies, many of the animals and the staff. I have always said that.

At the end of the day, SeaWorld is recovering and attendance at zoos and aquariums in the USA & Europe is at record levels, so bash us (yes, I said it) all you want, join the post-fact PETA activists and even make yourselves sound like the Daily Mirror, but we aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
 
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I would say the shows are forced as they are choreographed, not that the whales are starved if they don’t perform. It’s too jazz hands and hides the benefit of such tasks.

I would get rid of the stadium, enlarge the enclosure and have a large viewing area so folk can watch the whales working with the handlers throughout the day in a manner closer to the dolphin talks at discovery cove. The activities would be the same but it would feel less “dancing monkey” for want of a better phrase.
 
The problem with this debate is that it is always going to be a controversial topic, with some thinking that SeaWorld is a bad environment for these animals and some coming out in support of SeaWorld.

Now, I will personally come out in support of SeaWorld. I know many of you may hate me because I have said this, but let me explain why.

While I agree that captivity is clearly not the best of places for these orcas to be living, it certainly isn't the worst, either. Correct me if I'm wrong, @MakoMania or someone who knows more about this than I do, but isn't it true that SeaWorld's orcas were all saved from a much worse fate in the wild and rehabilitated by SeaWorld? Or did I imagine that? The point I'm trying to get across is; when you visit SeaWorld, the animals do not seem unhappy, in my opinion. It doesn't seem as though they are pressured to do tricks by their trainers in the shows and it seems as though they are treated well.

However, I will say that I think it would be better if the method of seeing these animals became more educational in the future and less entertainment-based. In fact, I personally think it would be better if the orcas were in a decent-size enclosure instead of in a show. In SeaWorld's defence, however, this does seem to be the direction they are heading in in the future. It is clear that they are trying to do things about the animals' quality of life in SeaWorld, and this seems to have gone up exponentially over the last decade or so, in my opinion. They've even said that they won't breed orcas anymore, so in 40 years' time or however long the lifespan of the average orca is, the issue will be reduced.

So those are my personal opinions on this topic. I was going to avoid posting about this topic, as it often makes me very uncomfortable coming out in support of SeaWorld, as so many seem to be against them. But I am personally in support of SeaWorld because when you visit, it is very clear that their intentions are entirely conservational and not profit-based in any way, in my opinion. Many of the park's rides have an underlying message about conservation (Antarctica, Turtle Trek, even Mako to an extent). And when you are taught about the work that SeaWorld does, I think it shows that the individuals behind the company are dedicated to making the natural world a better place.
P.S. Sorry for the long post. Also, I hope nobody is too angry with me about my support of SeaWorld.
 
@Matt N, the composition of the Killer Whale population is about 90% born at SeaWorld or another aquarium, 10% were captured from the wild by SeaWorld or another organisation decades in the past. I am totally against this and if this was still in practice today I would not support SeaWorld.

Some of the whales at SeaWorld do come from other facilities that had much worse welfare standards, SeaLand of the Pacific is one example.
 
Plastic Person said:
"SeaWorld is great."

Source: SeaWorld.
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*Source:

-American Humane Association
-OCEARCH
-Dr Guy Harvey Ocean Foundation
-AZA
-Dr Kelly Jaakola of the Dolphin Research Centre

I could go on.......

Unfortunately SeaWorld tried to expand their killer whale habitats in 2015, but it was effectively blocked by activists bullying the california coastal comission and it was clear that the same thing would happen in Texas and Florida.
 
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Dave said:
I would say the shows are forced as they are choreographed, not that the whales are starved if they don’t perform. It’s too jazz hands and hides the benefit of such tasks.

I would get rid of the stadium, enlarge the enclosure and have a large viewing area so folk can watch the whales working with the handlers throughout the day in a manner closer to the dolphin talks at discovery cove. The activities would be the same but it would feel less “dancing monkey” for want of a better phrase.
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I'd agree with this. It would be a reasonable compromise if they genuinely cannot be released in to the wild.

Question: Just how big would the tank have to be made before they truely had enough space to replicate their natural habitat? Would it take over the whole park? The whole of Orlando? Florida itself?
 
DiogoJ42 said:
I'd agree with this. It would be a reasonable compromise if they genuinely cannot be released in to the wild.

Question: Just how big would the tank have to be made before they truely had enough space to replicate their natural habitat? Would it take over the whole park? The whole of Orlando? Florida itself?
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Replicating the natural habitat is impossible. The obsession to replicate the natural habitat does not take into account that over 90% of these whales have never been in their 'natural' habitat. The whales are thriving in the current habitat and improvements are being made all the time.

The shows will be changing to a less jazzy, more educational style, which I think will help with some perception issues.
 
I honestly think a good campaign from Seaworld would look something like this:

Years ago, our previous owners captured whales and placed them in Central Florida for the entertainment of people visiting nearby Disney World. We don't do that any longer, and we're not breeding any more. We've got a bit of a mess on our hands here tbh, but we're not winding the whales up these days or having them perform tributes to the armed services, so why not come down and have a look? We're on hand to answer any questions, we're cheaper than Universal Studios, and we have a wicked B&M hypercoaster, that it is now more ethical to ride.
 
Essentially, these critters are in Plato's cave.

Or for a slightly more dumbed down metaphore, they are in The Matrix.
 
MakoMania said:
@Matt N, the composition of the Killer Whale population is about 90% born at SeaWorld or another aquarium, 10% were captured from the wild by SeaWorld or another organisation decades in the past. I am totally against this and if this was still in practice today I would not support SeaWorld.

Some of the whales at SeaWorld do come from other facilities that had much worse welfare standards, SeaLand of the Pacific is one example.
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Ah right. Thanks @MakoMania! So SeaWorld no longer captures orcas in the wild. That's good!

Also, why was an expansion of the orca habitats rejected, when that seems to be what people want?
 
Matt N said:
Ah right. Thanks @MakoMania! So SeaWorld no longer captures orcas in the wild. That's good!

Also, why was an expansion of the orca habitats rejected, when that seems to be what people want?
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PETA don't want the habitats expanded because they think it might change public perception of SeaWorld, which will hurt their revenues.

Little known fact, PETA are actually shareholders in SeaWorld, which makes the situation even more complicated.

PETA esentially try to make life as hard as possible, they have even offered money to construction contractors if they don't accept SeaWorld contracts.
 
MakoMania said:
PETA don't want the habitats expanded because they think it might change public perception of SeaWorld, which will hurt their revenues.

Little known fact, PETA are actually shareholders in SeaWorld, which makes the situation even more complicated.
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You have to hand it to them, that's absolutely top trolling by the lads down at PETA.

However, they bought the minimal possible shares, so surely their influence on the company is negligible? You know @MakoMania, given that according to consensus, PETA are just a bunch of fringe lunatics (although I do have a PETA acquaintance who's ride-or-die approach reminds me very much of yours here), they do seem to have an enormous amount of sway on SeaWorld in this particular 'culture war'.

Do you not think that the Blue World project was quietly cancelled as the initial fuss over Blackfish had died down? I think it was very much a tactical move to propose the development for California first, where they knew it would be opposed immediately. California is a much more liberal, progressive state than Florida or Texas. Attendance has been much steadier at the latter, as you know, and I'd argue that's partially down to a local audience with less ethical qualms about captive animals. It was a huge proposal for a company in financial flux. I don't think it was ever really going to happen.
 
^I can see your thought process, but the $300 million ($100m per SeaWorld park) needed for Blue World was affordable through cost cutting alone, this was a major factor in the closure of Gwazi at Busch Gardens Tampa.

California was the park hit the hardest (by far) by PETA/Blackfish, so it was natural to try to get Blue World up and running there first. Again, I can also see your logic in choosing California first, but I think it's unlikely.

PETA have an enormous influence on this, they are a multi million dollar organisation (I refuse to call them a charity) with lots of resources to play with. Their use of publicity stunts certainly gains media attention, who then report everything that PETA says as fact without a second thought. Imagine if PETA had spent all this money on actually helping animals.

They were really furious earlier this year when SeaWorld attendance jumped by 15%. I think describing this as a war would not be an overstatement to be honest.
 
Slightly off topics @MakoMania but if you don't mind me asking, why do you volunteer for a large for-profit company?

Shouldn't SeaWorld be paying you for your work?
 
speedy said:
Slightly off topics @MakoMania but if you don't mind me asking, why do you volunteer for a large for-profit company?

Shouldn't SeaWorld be paying you for your work?
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I do it because I support what they stand for. Not in a corporate sense because of course at the end of the day the parks are there to make money, but the animal care and training staff on the ground are so dedicated to their animals and the rescue programme is unlike anything I've seen anywhere else.

Also, logistically, volunteering for such a large organisation provides you with a larger range of experiences than say, at your local aquarium.

I also volunteer at my local animal shelter on a more regular basis as well. I'm just a big animal lover basically :)
 
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MakoMania said:
PETA don't want the habitats expanded because they think it might change public perception of SeaWorld, which will hurt their revenues.

Little known fact, PETA are actually shareholders in SeaWorld, which makes the situation even more complicated.

PETA esentially try to make life as hard as possible, they have even offered money to construction contractors if they don't accept SeaWorld contracts.
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Wow, that's interesting. Thanks @MakoMania!
 
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