The 2017 General Election

[rob666]

Nobody...ever...can claim that they have worked for everything they have ever had.
Sorry smudge, but did you work to pay for your own education???
Your own childhood clothing?
Your toys and childhood home?
Every last meal of your youth was paid for out of your earnings?
We all rely on the state at certain times in our lives...every last one of us.
As soon as you step on a pavement or under a streetlight, you are getting something off the state.

 

[smudge]

Nobody...ever...can claim that they have worked for everything they have ever had.
Sorry smudge, but did you work to pay for your own education???
Your own childhood clothing?
Your toys and childhood home?
Every last meal of your youth was paid for out of your earnings?
We all rely on the state at certain times in our lives...every last one of us.
As soon as you step on a pavement or under a streetlight, you are getting something off the state.

Sorry I should have added, 'as an adult.' In a previous post I had explained why it wasn't valid for anyone under 18. I know the threads moving quickly.

And no im not getting anything from the state, I'm indirectly paying for said streetlight.

Oh and in response to your points, my parents paid for all of the above, not the state.

 

[Matt.GC]

How did a thread about an election descend into a debate about anarchism? Not a single credible candidate from the BNP to the Greens, from UKIP to the communists is standing on a platform of anti wealth distribution, anti progressive tax system pro anarchy agenda in some form or another.

What has been suggested in recent posts is not even on the ballet paper.

 

[kris3012]

Maybe it makes you a better human being than me but in my opinion, no. Everything I've ever had I've had to work for. Charity starts at home. It's more my responsibility (in my view) to look after my own - and more importantly, myself, before I even consider giving my hard earned cash to someone I have no idea is a decent human or not. Maybe if everyone had this attitude and was willing to get off their ass and actually do something about a potentially ****ty situation they were in (potentially no healthcare) then IMHO the world would be a better place.

Couldn't have said it better myself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Poisson]

I think I'm voting Labour, sadly voting for the least worst outcome, nothing decent

 

[Martin]

Maybe it makes you a better human being than me but in my opinion, no. Everything I've ever had I've had to work for. Charity starts at home. It's more my responsibility (in my view) to look after my own - and more importantly, myself, before I even consider giving my hard earned cash to someone I have no idea is a decent human or not. Maybe if everyone had this attitude and was willing to get off their ass and actually do something about a potentially ****ty situation they were in (potentially no healthcare) then IMHO the world would be a better place.

I really do mean to be rude but I'm glad there aren't more people like you. How do you get through the day so sneering and paranoid that someone else might not live up to your mighty standards?

If everyone had this attitude we wouldn't have a society, if you think plenty of people are horrible now, do you actually think in an even more ruthless and self-centred world people would be more decent? Please. This is just what the people at the top want, all us curtain twitching about our neighbours while they get away with all sorts. If you want to live in some Ayn Rand selfish hellscape go for it but some people, mad as it may seem, actually like the idea of being part of a society that chips in and helps each other for everyone's benefit, not just their own. I've got more important and pressing things to worry about than whether 0.0002% of my taxes go to someone who doesn't work quite as hard as me, I wish I had the luxury of worrying about how next door pay the rent instead of worrying about how I pay mine, and I'm more than happy to not have much left over after paying mine if it means I help someone pay theirs. That's what society is about.

Anyway. I'm voting Labour. I have many, many issues with them, but it's a choice between a flawed party led by someone who although far from perfect means well; a woman who's unelected Premiership has in less than 12 months led to Scotland looking to leave the UK again, the collapse of Stormont and Ireland seriously thinking about unification, and a bizarre threat of war with Spain; and a man who can't bring himself to say gay sex isn't a sin. Let's stop killing disabled people in numbers so high they had to stop counting out of embarrassment, and then we can worry about whether Corbyn is too soft on Trident.

 

[andyramone]

I get the feeling some people here have literally no idea what it is like to live beneath the poverty line. Like for real, how straight up horrible it is to be poor, disabled, destitute, homeless, alone, forgotten, on food stamps, or mentally ill. Not a single clue.

It's straight up delusional to think we can live in a society where everyone can just look after themselves. Until the unemployment rate is 0% then it's impossible. I don't know what Utopia you live in, but in the real world, people need help. And we're all human, and we should all help each other.

You might wonder what YOU get out of it if you pay more as a high earner? Well how about a well educated, healthy, lower crime, safe and forward thinking society? How does that sound? If you feed, educate and house the poor and less fortunate, you improve the very society you live in. How is that a bad thing?!

And stop blaming the tiny, tiny fraction of benefit frauds on the failure of said system. That's not how it works. I hope you all try being unemployed one day and find out how vital a Welfare system is to this country. I burst with pride over the NHS and our Welfare state, even in the messed up state it's in, because at least it's there, and it shows that we do care to some degree. The more it erodes, the more I fear deeply for the future of this country.

 

[IanSR]

Tories have blamed the "feckless benefit fraudsters" for the Countries problems since the beginning of time, just look back at how Thatcher handled similar things back in the late 70's, it's an easy target becasuse almost everybody who works will instantly get angry about it without looking up the facts.

Facts are the figures bounded about are wildly inaccurate to begin eith, since they count both fraud and mistakes in the same column, to put things into perspective, the Tories are spending upward of £70billion on HS2, the "fraud and errors" total for last year was £3billion,

Yet this "fraud and errors" figure is bringing the Country to it's knees? Yeah right.

 

[DiogoJ42]

Let's not forget that according to our current government, even the self employed are evil scroungers.

 

[Matt.GC]

I have always wondered over the years how anyone can claim "charity begins at home" without knowing the following:

a) The total personal Gross costs of every bit of state education received, healthcare received, child benefit received by their parents, every tax subsidy their employer has had in order to employ them/state help any of their customers may have received in order to buy their products and services if they are self employed, role public services have played in their life such as use of public footpaths and police force etc, cost per head of every election ever held post 18 etc plus the cost per head of living in a civilised society in order to be able to provide them with the opportunities and economy in which to succeed..... I could go on.....

b) The total amount of tax ever paid to the exchequer.

c) The difference between a and b.

 

[smudge]

OK, I get that I'm in the minority on this forum, but there are clearly others who share this opinion too. In my group of peers, you would be the one with the differing opinion; and yeah, I through better of the members of towersstreet than to chastise someone for their opinion. I was respectful to all of yours.

I really do mean to be rude but I'm glad there aren't more people like you. How do you get through the day so sneering and paranoid that someone else might not live up to your mighty standards?

Look, I get it that you don't agree, but what did I say for you to come to the conclusion that I "get through the day so sneering and paranoid" - It's simply not true. I give lots to charity (likely more than you,) but I choose who I help, not be dictated to as to how my money is divid up. I'm very happy with my life and do not begrudge anyone help (financially or otherwise) if, in my opinion, they deserve it. Isn't that fair?

I get the feeling some people here have literally no idea what it is like to live beneath the poverty line. Like for real, how straight up horrible it is to be poor, disabled, destitute, homeless, alone, forgotten, on food stamps, or mentally ill. Not a single clue.

It's straight up delusional to think we can live in a society where everyone can just look after themselves. Until the unemployment rate is 0% then it's impossible. I don't know what Utopia you live in, but in the real world, people need help. And we're all human, and we should all help each other.

You might wonder what YOU get out of it if you pay more as a high earner? Well how about a well educated, healthy, lower crime, safe and forward thinking society? How does that sound? If you feed, educate and house the poor and less fortunate, you improve the very society you live in. How is that a bad thing?!

And stop blaming the tiny, tiny fraction of benefit frauds on the failure of said system. That's not how it works. I hope you all try being unemployed one day and find out how vital a Welfare system is to this country. I burst with pride over the NHS and our Welfare state, even in the messed up state it's in, because at least it's there, and it shows that we do care to some degree. The more it erodes, the more I fear deeply for the future of this country.

Are you actually blaming me, or others, for not living below the poverty line? You know what, I don't know what it is like, but how is that my fault?
I'm not even disagreeing with benefits either - if you're disabled, ill, unable to work, I do think you should receive help - but everyone else, including the homeless, alone, forgotten, (as you say) I'm not so sure they have an excuse not to get themselves out of that situation.

With regards to not having a "single clue" - Why should I have a clue? Is that something I've done wrong?

For those of you that have met me, I don't think I could have given the impression of a 'horrible', 'inhuman', 'selfish' and 'disillusion' person with 'mighty standards.'

Oh yeah, congratulations on resorting to name calling and personal insults. Call the lynch-mob.

 

[Rob]

I know issues in this thread are important to people and can lead to heated discussion but just a reminder to watch the language you choose to use in yours posts (I've had to edit a few) and please do be respectful to fellow members.

Thanks!

 

[andyramone]

Are you actually blaming me, or others, for not living below the poverty line? You know what, I don't know what it is like, but how is that my fault?
I'm not even disagreeing with benefits either - if you're disabled, ill, unable to work, I do think you should receive help - but everyone else, including the homeless, alone, forgotten, (as you say) I'm not so sure they have an excuse not to get themselves out of that situation.

Nope not blaming you, just suggesting you try some empathy to those less fortunate than you.

And please do tell how easy it is for homeless people to pull themselves out of their situation? No doubt it's so easy to get a job and a home when your situation is so dire you resort to sleeping on the streets.

For me, there's is no greater indication of how our government is failing society than seeing how many people have to sleep on the streets these days. It breaks my heart to see it and I would never assume to know their situation, or what they have been through to think they could just get themselves out of the most horrible situation imaginable.

 

[smudge]

Thanks for your somewhat calmer reply, Andy.

Again, I don't know, but what could possibly be the reason you wind up on the streets that isn't self inflicted?

Look, I agree with you to a degree, I am actually sympathetic with people in bad situations, I truly am, and there are people who deserve help, but in the same vein there are so many that don't.

I realise I'm back-tracking a little, but my previous comments really were misconstrued.

Back to the general election, the other day I found an interesting calculator; https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz
My results were that I agreed with 64% Labour, 53% lib dem, 51% tories, 44% UKIP and 30% BNP (of their policies.) I was surprised as generally, I vote Cons.

 

[rob666]

Having studied homelessness many years ago, the main groups who end up homeless are...
1.Ex care cases, most often young people who haven't had the aftercare support that they should have had. The majority of care cases happen when the young person can't get on with a step-parent, or at least that was the case until about 7 years ago when I managed to escape the industry. Putting young people, often at sixteen, in bedsits with little advice and no life skills to support themselves in the real world is simply setting them up to fail.
2.Ex military staff, again, often young, who leave the forces having never had to run their own home or manage bills.
3.People with mental health issues, who often turn to illegal drugs or alcohol to block out their "issues".
There are also a small minority of people who choose to live on the streets as a lifestyle choice, but they are very few in number.
Homelessness has increased with the removal of housing benefit for under 18's who have not been in care, which is now planned to go up to 21.

And it is difficult to empathise with anyone without having had a similar experience previously, you can only sympathise.

Excellent topic.

Finally, a big vote for Smudge, I'm sure there are many on here who had similar thoughts and opinions, but lacked the confidence to express themselves on here. Well done for speaking your mind openly and honestly.

And now you know why many "local" pubs still ban discussion on religion and politics!

 

[Martin]

OK I'll try and be nicer but I'm not holding back either.

not be dictated to as to how my money is divid up.

You aren't dictated to, what sort of childish "ALL TAX IS THEFT WAAHHHH" argument is that? You pay a set amount into a pot which the government we choose divides up how it wants. I mean, the alternative to this is of course some sort of anarchism, but we established you're not keen. If we have a state, we pay in to it, and we get back from it. Although if this isn't agreeable there's always that libertarian town they set up in Chile.

do not begrudge anyone help (financially or otherwise) if, in my opinion, they deserve it. Isn't that fair?

No. Because it isn't up to you to decide if someone is worthy or not. We're not talking about private citizens giving disposable income to causes, we're talking about society. As in, it's one thing to prefer which charities to donate to; we can only give so much and we all have different things we care more about etc, but to dismiss people because you don't think they're worth it goes against the idea of charity somewhat, it's a charity, it's support, it's not a test. Charities can decide what they're about, but governments can not and should not. There is of course a subtext to the way the conversation is being shifted to charity like this, and that is the good old Tory idea that the government shouldn't be there for the people who elect it, pay its wages and expect to represent and protect them, and that we should all lick the boots of the rich so they may be kind enough to take pity on us if we behave well enough. (And lol at "I bet I give more that you", I didn't know charity was a competition, I'd give more if I could afford to and I wouldn't be so judgemental about it)

I'm not so sure they have an excuse not to get themselves out of that situation.

I am homeless. I have no address. No bank account. No CV. No access to the internet. No clean clothes. No soap. I am totally going to get that well paying job.

With regards to not having a "single clue" - Why should I have a clue? Is that something I've done wrong?

You don't have to have first hand experience at something to have understanding or empathy. In all this talk of 'deserving' and 'undeserving', we forget to mention the effect poverty has on mental health and cognitive function. It's easy to dismiss, for example, poor people spending a large amount of their income on alcohol as 'reckless spending' and 'not wanting to improve their situation' or whatever, rather than understand why they do and why it's difficult to stop.

Oh yeah, congratulations on resorting to name calling and personal insults. Call the lynch-mob.

"I only said homeless people deserve it and people I dislike but don't know are unworthy of support, why are people being mean?"

Again, I don't know, but what could possibly be the reason you wind up on the streets that isn't self inflicted?

The fact you, an adult with a job and responsibilities, can't imagine how the arse could fall out of your life or someone else's, suggests a quite comfortable life from birth. You bragged about how you give more to charity than I do, so I'd love to know what job you do, might explain why you can only imagine homelessness as someone's fault. Something only bad people have to suffer.

I truly am, and there are people who deserve help, but in the same vein there are so many that don't.

Everyone deserves help. I can not believe this is a point of contention. Guess we shouldn't try to rehabilitate criminals either. Just let them go back out to re-offend. Or maybe just kill them, one strike and you're out. I imagine quite a few in the current government would like that.

Urgh, this is exactly why this is all so frustrating, we live in a world where "kids should be fed at school" kicks up an outrage, yet disabled people dying and selling weapons to Saudi Arabia to facilitate their war crimes in Yemen does not. We finally have a politician who is what we all say we want, who is honest and wants to help, but we hate him cos he has a beard and thinks Mutually Assured Destruction is not a good basis for global politics.

 

[smudge]

OK I'll try and be nicer but I'm not holding back either.


You aren't dictated to, what sort of childish "ALL TAX IS THEFT WAAHHHH" argument is that? You pay a set amount into a pot which the government we choose divides up how it wants. I mean, the alternative to this is of course some sort of anarchism, but we established you're not keen. If we have a state, we pay in to it, and we get back from it. Although if this isn't agreeable there's always that libertarian town they set up in Chile.


No. Because it isn't up to you to decide if someone is worthy or not. We're not talking about private citizens giving disposable income to causes, we're talking about society. As in, it's one thing to prefer which charities to donate to; we can only give so much and we all have different things we care more about etc, but to dismiss people because you don't think they're worth it goes against the idea of charity somewhat, it's a charity, it's support, it's not a test. Charities can decide what they're about, but governments can not and should not. There is of course a subtext to the way the conversation is being shifted to charity like this, and that is the good old Tory idea that the government shouldn't be there for the people who elect it, pay its wages and expect to represent and protect them, and that we should all lick the boots of the rich so they may be kind enough to take pity on us if we behave well enough. (And lol at "I bet I give more that you", I didn't know charity was a competition, I'd give more if I could afford to and I wouldn't be so judgemental about it)


I am homeless. I have no address. No bank account. No CV. No access to the internet. No clean clothes. No soap. I am totally going to get that well paying job.


You don't have to have first hand experience at something to have understanding or empathy. In all this talk of 'deserving' and 'undeserving', we forget to mention the effect poverty has on mental health and cognitive function. It's easy to dismiss, for example, poor people spending a large amount of their income on alcohol as 'reckless spending' and 'not wanting to improve their situation' or whatever, rather than understand why they do and why it's difficult to stop.


"I only said homeless people deserve it and people I dislike but don't know are unworthy of support, why are people being mean?"


The fact you, an adult with a job and responsibilities, can't imagine how the arse could fall out of your life or someone else's, suggests a quite comfortable life from birth. You bragged about how you give more to charity than I do, so I'd love to know what job you do, might explain why you can only imagine homelessness as someone's fault. Something only bad people have to suffer.


Everyone deserves help. I can not believe this is a point of contention. Guess we shouldn't try to rehabilitate criminals either. Just let them go back out to re-offend. Or maybe just kill them, one strike and you're out. I imagine quite a few in the current government would like that.

Urgh, this is exactly why this is all so frustrating, we live in a world where "kids should be fed at school" kicks up an outrage, yet disabled people dying and selling weapons to Saudi Arabia to facilitate their war crimes in Yemen does not. We finally have a politician who is what we all say we want, who is honest and wants to help, but we hate him cos he has a beard and thinks Mutually Assured Destruction is not a good basis for global politics.

Gosh, you're an angry chap aren't you. What makes you think any of my points were aimed at you anyway?

A lot of what you have said is hard to take seriously because you are completely twisting my words.

I'll respond to individual points as soon as I can, but one thing that I would like to clarify if that I certainly was not bragging about how much I give to charity, I was responding to being called selfish, immoral and inhuman.

You disagree with me, you have valid reasons for that, and gosh have you got the support on a theme park forum, and I don't expect anyone to be 'nice' about it, although it does make me laugh how you're sitting on a perceived high horse yet still chastising someone with a differing opinion.

 

[rob666]

"I am homeless. I have no address. No bank account. No CV. No access to the internet. No clean clothes. No soap. I am totally going to get that well paying job."
That was me, around 1980, so no internet, but all the rest fitted.
Had to get out of an abusive relationship, couldn't stand what I was doing, my health because of it was failing, so "Fight or Flight" I got a coach to London.
Directed at Victoria to a homeless project in Euston, they sent me to Centrepoint shelter in Shaftsbury Avenue, with a letter of reference.
Centrepoint gave me 3 nights shelter, advice on where to go next, sent me to the WRVS for interview clothes, gave me a copy of the Evening Standard, told me to apply for bar jobs that were "living in", gave me a stack of 10 pences to make the phone calls, and by day 2 I had job, clothes and accomodation for a month sorted (Bina Gardens, Chelsea!).
Centrepoint sent me back to the WRVS for free "Bar staff" clothing, then gave me a voucher for all the museums (they all charged back then), and even gave me Luncheon Vouchers for lunch ever day until I got my first paypacket
Bina Gardens helped me get six months subsidised accomodation at a church long term shelter.
I worked on the bar at what is now PWC accountants, where the Shard is now.
Amazing times, and I was supported to "Get a life back".

Now for my point...sorry about being long winded.
I went back to Centrepoint after a few months to do voluntary work, and as a "big lad" I assisted the staff on the gates at 8pm when they let the clients in.
They selected out more than half of the hopeful clients because they had been given more than one chance in the past and had blown it, abusing a system that had been set up to assist them, and there was not enough beds for all that wanted one.

There is assistance out there for people to help themselves when they are homeless.
Some people do not want to put the effort in to support themselves.
Some people choose to do nothing and rely on handouts.
Some people continue to make the wrong choices, and end up on the street.
The support system is there for people who are willing to take that support, and follow the advice they have been given.
So smudge, if you are looking for another charity to give to, send Centrepoint a nice note!

 

[Rick]

Pie absolutely nailed it in this video from yesterday. I wish he was real.

Language NSFW.

 

[Matt.GC]

Pie absolutely nailed it in this video from yesterday. I wish he was real.

Language NSFW.

Something that will upset people both to the right and left of me - but he's wrong. Although there's a certain beauty to seeing democracy finally working to correct the ills of the establishment, this populist movement sweepig the world will end up doing even more damage to democracy than good.

There's sending a clear message to "crooked Hillary", then there's promising detroit that the car manufacturers are coming back.

There's teaching the two mainstream French political parties a lesson, then there's nearly letting fascists in to power.

There's "taking back control" from the EU elites, then there's pretending they'll be absolutely no economic consequences and 350m quid lying around every week for the NHS.

There's engaging young people in politics and speaking out about dreams of socialist revolutions, then there's destroying the labour party, the very political vehicle that could deliver some of those dreams and handing even more power to the tories.

I know I'm in a minority, but I hold firm the belief that the reason the boring old "establishment" and "elites" are not as trendy and sexy as these wonderful populist movements is because it's the real world and life just isn't that simple.

What happens when people find out they've got rid of the suits that misled them for clowns that have sold them a fantasy?