Tom
TS Member
We had elections in 2015 and 2017, when they are supposed to be held every five years. You can't keep asking people to vote until you get the answer you want, apparently.
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The Brexit Thread
We had elections in 2015 and 2017, when they are supposed to be held every five years. You can't keep asking people to vote until you get the answer you want, apparently.
My one and only essay on the matter.
A bit of an explainer on my own position.
Had a lot of discussion with my customers over the last week over the looming Brexit deadline.
Had mentioned this excellent topic on here, and how more had been said on Brexit than coasters recently.
The general broad rule of "elderly want out, younger want in" holds true, however, the two mature very high income households both want to remain in Europe, for purely financial reasons, they know that they have far more to lose.
One wanted to leave from his heart, he has knowledge and experience of European influence on his land over several decades.
He knows what the CAP has done for the countryside and agribusiness as a whole.
Set aside is a farce, but what can you do...
He was happy with the status quo.
But he didn't like how the system was set up.
.
The other was a senior figure in manufacturing, loaded, modest, and a real decent old gent.
From someone at the opposite end of the economy and politics, over the years I have developed a great deal of respect for him, he lives his life the right way, and probably gives more to charity in a year than I will in my lifetime.
Again, his heart said leave, his wallet said stay, and he knows a hard brexit would be a disaster, not for him, but for his grandchildren's education.
Both have mentioned how new community rules have got in the way of their business...our way or no way...and the removal of internal tarrifs has led to internal trade protectionism and massive increases in transport costs and logistics.
Europe only makes sense for Europe...there is no logic in flying tomatoes from Spain, when we can grow them in Ormskirk.
There is no logic in making a plane in seven different countries, to low loader all the parts round the continent for construction, but protectionism for individual nations means it happens..
I can remember being promised a common market in the first referendum, there was no agreement on the social and political aspects, just...purely...the economic.
In my youth, European economists created butter, beef, and grain mountains, and lakes of millions and millions of gallons of wine and milk.
Yet millions starved, at exactly the same time, in Africa and the Asian subcontinent.
Planes and airports, good for big business, tourism and employment...so lets push forward.
90% of flights are not needed.
We know what it does for the planet.
So much for well intentioned macroeconomic principles.
France made some effort as far as famine was concerned, but the rest of the community stood by and let it all happen.
The Tories hated Europe after the social chapter was agreed to, the European Community was then seen by many as a centre left group...and many could still remember the French not wanting us to join the party, as we were under the thumb of the yanks...as we still are.
My main concern for us staying in Europe is the rise of the far right on the land continent...they are gaining seats, and continue to grow.
The far right here only gains seats in Europe, or on councils for a year or two.
Can't wait to leave, hopefully with a negotiated agreement.
As a good left wing lump of throbbing gristly gammon.
A bit of an explainer on my own position.
Had a lot of discussion with my customers over the last week over the looming Brexit deadline.
Had mentioned this excellent topic on here, and how more had been said on Brexit than coasters recently.
The general broad rule of "elderly want out, younger want in" holds true, however, the two mature very high income households both want to remain in Europe, for purely financial reasons, they know that they have far more to lose.
One wanted to leave from his heart, he has knowledge and experience of European influence on his land over several decades.
He knows what the CAP has done for the countryside and agribusiness as a whole.
Set aside is a farce, but what can you do...
He was happy with the status quo.
But he didn't like how the system was set up.
.
The other was a senior figure in manufacturing, loaded, modest, and a real decent old gent.
From someone at the opposite end of the economy and politics, over the years I have developed a great deal of respect for him, he lives his life the right way, and probably gives more to charity in a year than I will in my lifetime.
Again, his heart said leave, his wallet said stay, and he knows a hard brexit would be a disaster, not for him, but for his grandchildren's education.
Both have mentioned how new community rules have got in the way of their business...our way or no way...and the removal of internal tarrifs has led to internal trade protectionism and massive increases in transport costs and logistics.
Europe only makes sense for Europe...there is no logic in flying tomatoes from Spain, when we can grow them in Ormskirk.
There is no logic in making a plane in seven different countries, to low loader all the parts round the continent for construction, but protectionism for individual nations means it happens..
I can remember being promised a common market in the first referendum, there was no agreement on the social and political aspects, just...purely...the economic.
In my youth, European economists created butter, beef, and grain mountains, and lakes of millions and millions of gallons of wine and milk.
Yet millions starved, at exactly the same time, in Africa and the Asian subcontinent.
Planes and airports, good for big business, tourism and employment...so lets push forward.
90% of flights are not needed.
We know what it does for the planet.
So much for well intentioned macroeconomic principles.
France made some effort as far as famine was concerned, but the rest of the community stood by and let it all happen.
The Tories hated Europe after the social chapter was agreed to, the European Community was then seen by many as a centre left group...and many could still remember the French not wanting us to join the party, as we were under the thumb of the yanks...as we still are.
My main concern for us staying in Europe is the rise of the far right on the land continent...they are gaining seats, and continue to grow.
The far right here only gains seats in Europe, or on councils for a year or two.
Can't wait to leave, hopefully with a negotiated agreement.
As a good left wing lump of throbbing gristly gammon.
You could say the same for some of the older generation and their hysterics whenever someone asks to be called by a different pronoun
The problem we are in now is largely a result of the 2017 general election. May thought she could increase her majority but did the opposite. The government has been running without a majority since then, which has meant that it's been nearly impossible to deliver anything.
To solve this problem, I do think a general election is one way forward. It also has serious risks. It won't necessarily deliver a majority (whereas a referendum would). If it doesn't give either side a majority then it's not clear how anyone would be able to form a government. The DUP certainly won't join the Tories now they've suggested NI be in a separate customs territory from the rest of Britain. (this is also the reason may rejected that deal when first offered).
Going to be an interesting fee month if an extension of any kind is given today.
Going to be even more interesting if it isn't. (Though i doubt that because the optics for the EU would be awful).
I agree that the current mess is partly down to the result of the 2017 election. However I believe the main reason for this mess (leaving aside the fact the Cameron goverment had no plan if leave won the referendum) is that when Mrs May became PM she did not involve the opposition parties and thought that the Conservatives and the Conservatives alone should decide how Brexit should be delivered. This was never going to happen with their slender majority together with the fact that the Conservatives have been fighting internally like ferrets in a sack for the last 30 years.
I know things are often easier in hindsight, but if only Mrs May, back in 2016, had set up a cross party committee to explore the various options and then make a sensible recommendation to parliament then perhaps this could have been sorted by now.
Rick
TS Member
@rob666 there are certainly some points in your post that I don't disagree with - quite a few in fact. However, as with much of the Brexit debate, I agree with the problems that you have identified, but we come to a different view in terms of a solution.
I think the EU is full of flaws - I am no super fan by any means, but 30 years from now, when the big players in the world are continental sized (USA, China, India, Brazil + collectively the countries that will make up the EU), I struggle to understand why it makes sense to go in the opposite direction. That's just lost on me.
You could argue that our conversion to Trump politics would have happened anyway - but Brexit is driving it further, I have no doubt about that. 'Facts don't matter' is a real problem for me - take the past couple of days where the Prime Minister, Home Secretary and Brexit Secretary couldn't seem to answer a simple question about Irish sea border checks, providing shrugs or contradictory responses. Further, the prime minister refuses to answers questions at a select committee.
That's important stuff - particularly given the political circumstances in Ireland, but also when the same three people are leading the charge to push this through parliament without the scrutiny it deserves.
Does this guy really believe what he's saying? He voted against Mrs. May's deal three times - now he's upset that others take issue with the Johnson proposal and the way it's being railroaded through? Give me a break. Is his 'Drain the Swamp' comment a calculated play on the basis that it worked for Trump - therefore it could work for them? What a sad state of affairs.
I still struggle to find people who voted for Brexit who can tell me how their life or this country is going to be better the day we leave and during the ensuing years and decades. I'd be fascinated to hear responses from anyone who voted leave.
I think the EU is full of flaws - I am no super fan by any means, but 30 years from now, when the big players in the world are continental sized (USA, China, India, Brazil + collectively the countries that will make up the EU), I struggle to understand why it makes sense to go in the opposite direction. That's just lost on me.
You could argue that our conversion to Trump politics would have happened anyway - but Brexit is driving it further, I have no doubt about that. 'Facts don't matter' is a real problem for me - take the past couple of days where the Prime Minister, Home Secretary and Brexit Secretary couldn't seem to answer a simple question about Irish sea border checks, providing shrugs or contradictory responses. Further, the prime minister refuses to answers questions at a select committee.
That's important stuff - particularly given the political circumstances in Ireland, but also when the same three people are leading the charge to push this through parliament without the scrutiny it deserves.
Does this guy really believe what he's saying? He voted against Mrs. May's deal three times - now he's upset that others take issue with the Johnson proposal and the way it's being railroaded through? Give me a break. Is his 'Drain the Swamp' comment a calculated play on the basis that it worked for Trump - therefore it could work for them? What a sad state of affairs.
I still struggle to find people who voted for Brexit who can tell me how their life or this country is going to be better the day we leave and during the ensuing years and decades. I'd be fascinated to hear responses from anyone who voted leave.
Niche status suits some countries, and always has.
There is less chance of a right wing takeover of my nation out of Europe, than remaining in.
The sinister signs are on the wall clearly.
And being the selfish soul that I am...self employed, loyal customer base, no desire to leave the boundaries in the future...I can cope with some shortages and inflation for a while, I feel it would be worth the effort.
The beurocracy is a horrendous millstone round all our necks, it is a gravy train for exhausted politicians and now political extremists.
I still feel that we will be better off out, with a reasoned, negotiated exit.
And then we build the wall round Yorkshire.
There is less chance of a right wing takeover of my nation out of Europe, than remaining in.
The sinister signs are on the wall clearly.
And being the selfish soul that I am...self employed, loyal customer base, no desire to leave the boundaries in the future...I can cope with some shortages and inflation for a while, I feel it would be worth the effort.
The beurocracy is a horrendous millstone round all our necks, it is a gravy train for exhausted politicians and now political extremists.
I still feel that we will be better off out, with a reasoned, negotiated exit.
And then we build the wall round Yorkshire.
It's very clear from both the remainers and the Brexiteers that the UK will be economically worst off once we leave.
The Brexiteers don't seem to worry at all about the economy going down the pan, they just want out to regain our sovereign and control of our country.
One thing that is clear, the country is divided on this issue.
The Brexiteers don't seem to worry at all about the economy going down the pan, they just want out to regain our sovereign and control of our country.
One thing that is clear, the country is divided on this issue.
bluesonichd
TS Member
is that confirmed? I think there should be at least a 4 week debate on the subject
we need studies done to gain all the facts to make an informed decision on it.
then put it to a peoples vote to ultimately decide
delta79
TS Member
Dar
TS Member
Water isn't wet, it just makes things wet
The trouble with deciding Brexit by general election is the other policies on the table.
If bobo wins, we'll not only get his version of Brexit, but also his domestic policies. Now, for some people that might be fine but there might be people that want to get a deal done and leave the EU that feel forced to back the Tories even if they disagree with their other ideas. This just seems like a ploy to get the tories in for another 5 years, with brexit a 'happy' side-effect
Have a binding referendum to decide between "Deal, no deal, remain", THEN have an election once it's been implemented.
The trouble with deciding Brexit by general election is the other policies on the table.
If bobo wins, we'll not only get his version of Brexit, but also his domestic policies. Now, for some people that might be fine but there might be people that want to get a deal done and leave the EU that feel forced to back the Tories even if they disagree with their other ideas. This just seems like a ploy to get the tories in for another 5 years, with brexit a 'happy' side-effect
Have a binding referendum to decide between "Deal, no deal, remain", THEN have an election once it's been implemented.
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imanautie
TS Member
Here's a nerdy function which returns good or not for any given party.
function IsPartyAnyGood(Party) {
return "of course bloody not";
};
Sent from my Swift 2 Plus using Tapatalk
Stuie
TS Member
Fuck that shit.
Dave
TS Founding Member
I think there is as great a chance of a right wing takeover of British politics, it’s just happening in a different way. Rather than new extreme right parties coming into the mix, the extreme right is infiltrating the Tory party. Much of what the BNP and EDL spouted in the early 00’s is now being sounded out by the Tory party (return of capital punishment, severe limits on immigration, gender politics restrictions). Britain (like America) is comfortable with the parties it knows, so like America the solution has been to infiltrate an already centre right party and move it progressively to the right.
True but as their other policies are tories on steroids it would be an interesting logic to not want to vote Tory but want to Vote brexit party....