The Great Squeeze: Cost of Living Crisis 2022

[WillPS]

Out of interest; if the Tories are so awful, why have they won the last 4 elections?

You can't trust people, Matt. People listen to Coldplay and voted for the Nazis.

 

[rob666]

I fully agree that many of the current issues aren't caused by the current government, and that a Labour government might not change certain things.

However, what a Labour government could do is spend money differently to our current government and introduce different taxation policies so that more money can be spent on things such as public services and financial help to those who need it most.

Going right back here, but didn't Butcher Blair have that very option, but decided against changing the tax system to create a more equal society, in the gross chase for future votes.
He had the chance to make a more equal society, but chose to chase re-election instead...no votes in tax rises apparently.
Thatcher's "greed is good" philosophy stuck hard...and here we are, the rich richer than ever, the poor getting poorer, hungrier and colder by the day.
Too late for Labour now...the massive jump to the right should have been stopped a generation ago.

 

[Dave]

I fully agree that many of the current issues aren't caused by the current government, and that a Labour government might not change certain things.

However, what a Labour government could do is spend money differently to our current government and introduce different taxation policies so that more money can be spent on things such as public services and financial help to those who need it most.

Huge parts of the countries problems are caused by the current government. Couple of examples:

1) They sold off public assets (post office etc), increasing cost of using the service.

2) They have decreased real terms funding for the NHS, it’s never had such bad performance. Life expectancy has stalled and preventative schemes where cut increasing the burden on acute services.

3) Put aside the rights and wrongs of brexit in principle as that’s a far more emotive debate but they have gone for a harder brexit than anyone in the leave campaign publically advocated for, making it harder to trade with our closest neighbour and therefore increasing prices and crippling freedom of moment for UK residents.

4) Culled local government funding, reducing adult care facilities to the point nearly 20% of NHS beds are filled with people who are fit to leave hospital but there is nowhere for them to go.

5) Introduced austerity, even though the IFS said they didn’t need to go reduce national debt, this led to increases in child poverty and the above mentioned NHS failures. It also increases inequality in living standards (only Bulgaria is worse in European rankings).


6) Highest covid death rate in Europe due to the earlier muddled, strategy.

Yes, a new government will change taxation around a bit, give something with one hand and take it away with another. They will reorganise spending pots, but its probably not going to make much difference.

Contrary to what a lot of people believe, governments (whoever they are), don't try and p*ss people off deliberately. Ultimately they are trying to get re-elected and want to do the best for the country as a whole. But I do think they can become a bit complacent if they are in power too long.

So definitely time for a change.

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Governments don’t aim to get caught, the Tories only care about improving things for rich people.

Going right back here, but didn't Butcher Blair have that very option, but decided against changing the tax system to create a more equal society, in the gross chase for future votes.
He had the chance to make a more equal society, but chose to chase re-election instead...no votes in tax rises apparently.
Thatcher's "greed is good" philosophy stuck hard...and here we are, the rich richer than ever, the poor getting poorer, hungrier and colder by the day.
Too late for Labour now...the massive jump to the right should have been stopped a generation ago.

There wasn’t a whole lot Labour had planned for tax, they did reform quite a bit but I would say they didn’t go far enough and most reforms where reversed once the Tories returned power.

Contrary to popular belief Starmer isn’t that centre, he has wrote articles supporting elements of Marxism in the past and he is further left than Blair. He is certainly not as far left as Corbyn, but then that extreme is toxic to British voters, so unless Labour got good at masking how far left they actually are, like the Tories mask how far right they are (they are trying hence the public softening of nationalisation when most Labour insiders say it’s still a priority), they won’t win power.

Personally I do find Starmer lacks something but his political position isn’t my issue with him. But that’s personal preference really.

Just to state I don’t think a Labour government would be a magic bullet, I do however think another round of Tory rule will destroy the last remnants of the NHS and social protections and lead to more disjointed and ultimately toxic society, so I will take a less than perfect Labour government over that.

 

[Benzin]

Don't think anyone really believes that a Labour led government (let's be honest, no one is getting a majority in the current climate) will fix all the problems.

However.

Can't exactly see a Labour government wasting money on dodgy PPE, attempting to send people to Rwanda with questionable legality (after already paying them lots of money), not really changing anything about living conditions (the Grenfell fallout has gone really quiet for example) or not doing anything to solve the issues regarding social services or healthcare.

Considering that the country is currently floundering, and its taken them weeks to install a new leader (presumably because they're all on holiday?) shows the utter contempt there is for the citizens of this country. They'd rather play up to a non-existent culture war (again, considering historically there's always someone, be it the gays, those on benefits and now trans people) than actually do something that would prevent unavoidable deaths (lol like they did with Covid am I right?).

Given the past 12 years I'd rather see people answer why they would keep the Conservatives in rather than some whataboutery "who else is there?" when there's plenty of choice available.

 

[Dave]

Just as a small example of the current governments ways:

The Home Secretary (off the back of a right wing think tank report) has said that police are too “woke” and should not get involved in partisan political issues…. Like pride

So gay rights are now a partisan issue, and the police shouldn’t get involved. That’s nice!

Now why would that be the front page of the news, maybe because the Tory’s massively cut police numbers since 2010, crime has gone up but they don’t want to admit their cuts are to blame.

(Just for clarity I’m not saying that all the issues the police face are down to cuts and their culture is an issue but ironically pulling them out of the debate on minority and womens rights is way the wrong direction after recent scandals).

 

[Matt.GC]

I think people are right to question Labour as an alternative government, but we have to face facts about what giving the Tories another green light will do. Why do the Tories have to be gifted the "default" choice whilst people procrastinate over who else to vote for?

 

[Benzin]

I think people are right to question Labour as an alternative government, but we have to face facts about what giving the Tories another green light will do. Why do the Tories have to be gifted the "default" choice whilst people procrastinate over who else to vote for?

The other issue is that the voting system we have in place effectively means you either get Conservative or Labour as most likely to get a majority.

Until that changes the left wing vote will always be more spread between Labour, Lib Dems and Green.

 

[Alsty]

Now why would that be the front page of the news, maybe because the Tory’s massively cut police numbers since 2010, crime has gone up but they don’t want to admit their cuts are to blame.

While we talk about crime, the Conservatives also cut funding to many other things such as youth centres, social care, drug and alcohol programmes and mental health resources, which mean the police have to pick up problems that could've been stopped early with the right interventions.

 

[Dave]

The other issue is that the voting system we have in place effectively means you either get Conservative or Labour as most likely to get a majority.

Until that changes the left wing vote will always be more spread between Labour, Lib Dems and Green.

This is defiantly a big issue, Labour made a huge mistake not bringing in PR voting. That was selfish power hunger that did for them there.

 

[BigT]

The reason Blair and Brown didn’t do too badly was that Brown followed Lamont's spending plans for the first few years.
They were basically Tory light but they also had an absolute master spin Dr in Campbell.
They didn’t invest much public money into the NHS, most of it was through PFI which has left the NHS with huge debts to finance.
New Labour was about staying in power more than trying to do good for the country, if Brown had a personality then they could have stayed in power but I think after 3/4 election wins any government starts to run out of steam as they can no longer blame the previous one.
We should start to realise by now they are all bloody useless.

 

[Dave]

The reason Blair and Brown didn’t do too badly was that Brown followed Lamont's spending plans for the first few years.
They were basically Tory light but they also had an absolute master spin Dr in Campbell.
They didn’t invest much public money into the NHS, most of it was through PFI which has left the NHS with huge debts to finance.
New Labour was about staying in power more than trying to do good for the country, if Brown had a personality then they could have stayed in power but I think after 3/4 election wins any government starts to run out of steam as they can no longer blame the previous one.
We should start to realise by now they are all bloody useless.

Unfortunately the facts don’t really back you here, Labour increased NHS funding by over 7% real term (over inflation). The Tory’s have offered a real terms cut in funding when factoring in inflation.

PFI was a massive misstep by Labour (PFI was actually started by the previous Tory government but Labour kept it going and expanded it) PFI costs actually increased after 2010 because of poor re-negotiation of debt by government when the contracts came up for renewal. I fully agree with you PFI’s are a bad idea and Labour should not have continued the policy but they didn’t come close to using up the real terms funding increase between 1997 and 2010.

 

[Matt.GC]

PFI was effectively New Labours Buy Now Pay Later way of investment. A horrid policy that caused loads of friction between Blair and Brown.

I've read Tony Blair's book and it's very evident that in most decisions he made, winning elections became to overriding factor. He became so obsessed with it that it consumed his policies and Labour lost a lot of its core values and his huge majorities were partially wasted as a result.

I get the criticisms of Blair and hold many of them myself and this partially carried over into the Ed Milliband era where the discourse was allowed to be dominated by Osbourne and Cameron lies about the country being bankrupt (all seems quite trivial when you look at what the Tories have done to the public finances since) and Labour policy was to capitulate to this argument.

But Labour do really need though is a robust electioneering strategy right now. Watering down your values and winning hearts and minds of voters don't have to go hand in hand like they did in the past. Elections are always won on the centre ground and if the centre ground isn't in the right place, then move it. Campaign for it. For convince people. Just capitulating to Tory policy will always leave us with them being the default option. They were wrong about the "evils" of nationalisation, they wrong about cutting their way to growth. Liz Truss is busy carving out a very right wing premiership in a few days time and this needs challenging.

 

[shakey]

the Tories only care about improving things for rich people..

Sorry , but that's total bo**ocks !!





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[Dave]

Sorry , but that's total bo**ocks !!





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Go on then, prove how that is bo**ocks, this is a discussion after all. I will start with an example of how they prioritise the rich.

Example one - Labour and the Libdems are proposing taxing energy companies profits (that go to rich folk) to pay for a cap. The supported option for the Tory party is to place a cap, pay for it with government debt and place the burden on working peoples tax. Effectively subsidising the profit generating energy industry.

Example two - when further money was needed for the health and care system they choose to increase NI, this is a non progressive tax that hits working people on PAYE harder than rich people who’s income does not come from traditional wage routes. Rather than taxing corporations or profits or capital gains.

There are others but I am curious what the rebuttal is.

 

[shakey]

If the Tories only cared about the rich then only rich people would vote for them and seeing as the rich only make up a small percentage of the population, they would hardly get any votes. But they consistantly get the highest vote share.

Of course it's possible that most people are just stupid and vote for them despite it not being in their own interests.

As I have said, governments in general try to do their best for the country and try to get re-elected.

If you are a staunch labour supporter then you may have convinced yourself that the Tories are scum and stick blinkers on to cement that view. Just as staunch Tories probably have the same blinkered view of what they perceive as loony lefties !!

The reality is we have fairly moderate main stream parties who's decisions when in power generally make little difference to peoples lives. Outside influences out of government control are the big factors that affect people.

The main parties are far closer in their politics than they were 40 or 50 years ago.

I am happy for a change of government this time, I think it keeps all parties on their toes. But I am pretty sure that it ain't going to make much difference in reality.

I haven't voted for 25 years despite having a general interest in politics. If I believe that one party is clearly better than another then I may stick my cross somewhere but I haven't seen anything to make me want to do that for a long time.

EDIT : I am not going to give any thoughts on what are good and bad policies because I am not a politician. Taxation and spending is complicated and it isn't just a simple thing like let's tax big corporations, this doesn't necessarily work.

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[Benzin]

Of course it's possible that most people are just stupid and vote for them despite it not being in their own interests.

*Looks at the various elections that took place in 2016 in UK and USA*

They get the highest vote share because the split of right wing votes is currently either Conservative or non-descript pointless whatever Farage is peddling. Plus they have perfected getting the country to blame itself for the problems (like say, schoolkids going hungry) than actually doing what's within their power.

Populism wins out.

 

[shakey]

Populism wins out.

Exactly, that's what an election is for. To elect the most popular party!

I suspect that Labour may just do enough next time to either be in government or lead a coalition.

The big problem looming though , is not who wins the next election but when the jocks vote out. That will be a right mess and no good for anyone.





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[WillPS]

If the Tories only cared about the rich then only rich people would vote for them and seeing as the rich only make up a small percentage of the population, they would hardly get any votes. But they consistantly get the highest vote share.

Of course it's possible that most people are just stupid and vote for them despite it not being in their own interests.

Or how about the possibility that people are dripfed narratives that give them the impression that Labour's approach to taxation would make their lives worse, when really it'd make their lives better but make the proprietors of whichever outlet is feeding them that narrative less rich?

People love to believe that they are more successful than they are, and that things like Ed Miliband's mansion tax would somehow affect them even though they live in a 3 bed former council house in Basingstoke. The Myleene Klass effect, I call it.

People also have a tendency to scapegoat and the Tories will happily spam that button way harder than Labour would dare to; Labour would never boast of sending asylum seekers off to Rwanda because it's awful, undeliverable and doesn't really do anything to fix the problem, but the Tories will happily make a song and dance about it because they think it makes them seem tough. It's all pretty hollow, but it works to capture voters who think that these asylum seekers are worsening their quality of life. Populism, basically.

 

[Plastic Person]

One of the greatest tricks the Tories have pulled over the last fifteen years, alongside shifting the Overton window further to the right than David Cameron would have thought possible, is quietly and incrementally eroding faith in the concept of government as a whole. That's why we now have a cabinet of individuals who seemingly answer to nobody, often just lying with zero accountability required, and presumably why tax payers on the cusp of a huge cost crisis are willing look at the state of things and say, "Well, sure, it's bad, but it's not like the other lot would be any better." They have crushed a lot of spirits, not to mention further emboldening many more curtain twitchers.

Life is miserable, people deserve better. Even the ones who wind me up.

 

[shakey]

I suppose you think the BBC are biased aswell ?

I am not trying to defend the current government. Boris was clearly bonkers and as I said a few posts earlier, they have lost the plot. And Liz Truss wouldn't be much better !

Labour lost the plot when their run came to an end , and thatcher clearly lost the plot !

All I am saying is that a change in government isn't going to make the slightest difference to most peoples lives. If it does and its in a good way then I will be very happy to be proved wrong.

An end to the war in Ukraine looks like the biggest thing that can help. Although an end to the war is looking unlikely at the moment.



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