[The Smiler] Construction Updates / Ride Speculation Part 2 *SPOILER FREE*

[Dave]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Surely having those brake fins on the lift-hill will make the train effectively a lot heavier to pull up, and therefore make the ride massively less energy-efficient? :/

The force induced by eddy current brakes is proportional to the speed at which the brake fins pass through the magnetic field. So if the fins are permanently raised, you'd have to assume that the lift would be moving at a fairly low speed so that the resistance from the brakes wouldn't be much of a problem.

Eurofighter lift hills aren't exactly rapid at the best of times.

As someone who spends all their working day with big magnets i can confirm that's true, hence why a magnetic brake cannot be used to bring a train to a complete stop (you wither need a traditional brake or a kicker wheel to do that).

Yes but still breaks that size (therefore large surface area) combined with a train moving at a modest speed (A Eurofighter lift hill is at least as fast as walking speed if not a few mph more) would still result in a lot of power wasted if they were always out the whole time.

I'd suspect they do retract into the track, but like on a lunched coaster release just after the car has passed.

It will have some effect (not the size of the train but the size and strength of the magnets) but it might be deemed well within the acceptable limits to allow for a reversible lift-hill.

 

[KingNemesis]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Forgot to add this.. Saw at 4:40 before I went to air.. Although unsure on where its going..

 

[Tim]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Surely having those brake fins on the lift-hill will make the train effectively a lot heavier to pull up, and therefore make the ride massively less energy-efficient? :/

The force induced by eddy current brakes is proportional to the speed at which the brake fins pass through the magnetic field. So if the fins are permanently raised, you'd have to assume that the lift would be moving at a fairly low speed so that the resistance from the brakes wouldn't be much of a problem.

Eurofighter lift hills aren't exactly rapid at the best of times.

As someone who spends all their working day with big magnets i can confirm that's true, hence why a magnetic brake cannot be used to bring a train to a complete stop (you wither need a traditional brake or a kicker wheel to do that).

Yes but still breaks that size (therefore large surface area) combined with a train moving at a modest speed (A Eurofighter lift hill is at least as fast as walking speed if not a few mph more) would still result in a lot of power wasted if they were always out the whole time.

I'd suspect they do retract into the track, but like on a lunched coaster release just after the car has passed.

It will have some effect (not the size of the train but the size and strength of the magnets) but it might be deemed well within the acceptable limits to allow for a reversible lift-hill.

I was referring to the size of the magnets, and it would have to be fairly strong wouldn't it as if the train was dropped from half way up the lift hill it wouldn't be travelling Stealth type speeds but would still need slowing.

I don't know something about them being permanently out doesn't seem right. I can't imagine making evacuations easier and reducing a tiny amount of noise from using a traditional anti-roll-back would be worth making the ride more energy inefficient, especially given that Alton already has power issues.

 

[TheMan]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Forgot to add this.. Saw at 4:40 before I went to air.. Although unsure on where its going..

Are you talking about the supports, or the mug of coffee?

 

[KingNemesis]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Forgot to add this.. Saw at 4:40 before I went to air.. Although unsure on where its going..

Are you talking about the supports, or the mug of coffee?

Both..

 

[Dave]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Surely having those brake fins on the lift-hill will make the train effectively a lot heavier to pull up, and therefore make the ride massively less energy-efficient? :/

The force induced by eddy current brakes is proportional to the speed at which the brake fins pass through the magnetic field. So if the fins are permanently raised, you'd have to assume that the lift would be moving at a fairly low speed so that the resistance from the brakes wouldn't be much of a problem.

Eurofighter lift hills aren't exactly rapid at the best of times.

As someone who spends all their working day with big magnets i can confirm that's true, hence why a magnetic brake cannot be used to bring a train to a complete stop (you wither need a traditional brake or a kicker wheel to do that).

Yes but still breaks that size (therefore large surface area) combined with a train moving at a modest speed (A Eurofighter lift hill is at least as fast as walking speed if not a few mph more) would still result in a lot of power wasted if they were always out the whole time.

I'd suspect they do retract into the track, but like on a lunched coaster release just after the car has passed.

It will have some effect (not the size of the train but the size and strength of the magnets) but it might be deemed well within the acceptable limits to allow for a reversible lift-hill.

I was referring to the size of the magnets, and it would have to be fairly strong wouldn't it as if the train was dropped from half way up the lift hill it wouldn't be travelling Stealth type speeds but would still need slowing.

I don't know something about them being permanently out doesn't seem right. I can't imagine making evacuations easier and reducing a tiny amount of noise from using a traditional anti-roll-back would be worth making the ride more energy inefficient, especially given that Alton already has power issues.

If a train dropped the speed would increase, in turn this would increase the resistive force of the magnets. The speed of a magnet moving across the copper fins is very much a factor so as speed increases so does the braking force of the system.

If you watch a POV of a magnetic break run on an incline you will note that the train hitting the brake run rapidly slows down but then reaches a point where the brakes seem to stop having a major effect on the speed. You only get retracting magnetic breaks on flat track or when they need to allow a train to pass by them at speed.

EDIT: Daves how magnetic brakes work

1) train mounted with permanent magnet track has a copper fin

2) Train passes over system so magnets rapidly pass over copper fins generating an eddy current

3) eddy currents create a magnetic force in the copper fin that interacts with the field on the magnet slowing the train down

4) the faster the magnet moves the higher the eddy currents and the stronger the braking force

Essentially the magnet creates the opposing force and then reacts with the opposing force, this makes the brakes very smooth and efficient but as the braking force is determined by the strength of the fins magnetic field which is in turn determined by the eddy currents, determined by the speed the magnet passes, they cannot completely stop a moving object. This is probably not completely accurate on a scientific level but works in mechanical physics.

 

[TheMan]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

I don't know where else to put this really? Move it somewhere if you like, but this is after the great privilege of the final Sanctuary run through:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151868820093677&set=vb.651288676&type=2&theater

There is so much more, this clip will do till I locate the main one

Yup - I was there ;D - if they capture ANY of this in The Smiler it will be BRILLIANT!

Enjoy. I did!

 

[Tim]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Thanks Dave but I do already know how they work

All I'm saying is that while magnetic breaks run exponentially I still think that the train will be moving fast enough for a noticeable amount of power to be used opposing it. Not an amount you'd notice per cycle but over a whole day it would start to add up.

However a traditional anti-roll-back system doesn't have any effect on the power to run the lift at all (well it's negligible) and the only advantage of the newer system is that the train can be lowered if the chain snaps (something that I don't believe happens very often) or rolled back in an evacuation situation (again how often is this needed?)

That's what's bothering me about the always out fins theory, the system would be neater if they remained retracted while the car passes then released afterwords.

 

[GaryH]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Dave..... either is because ive drunk a bottle of red wine, or your explanation was too scientific... but that did give me a headache.

But thanks anyway

lol

 

[Dave]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Thanks Dave but I do already know how they work

All I'm saying is that while magnetic breaks run exponentially I still think that the train will be moving fast enough for a noticeable amount of power to be used opposing it. Not an amount you'd notice per cycle but over a whole day it would start to add up.

However a traditional anti-roll-back system doesn't have any effect on the power to run the lift at all (well it's negligible) and the only advantage of the newer system is that the train can be lowered if the chain snaps (something that I don't believe happens very often) or rolled back in an evacuation situation (again how often is this needed?)

That's what's bothering me about the always out fins theory, the system would be neater if they remained retracted while the car passes then released afterwords.

But a traditional anti-rollback doesn't allow the train to reverse and vertical lift-hill evacuations are apparently a bit of a nightmare.

And sorry Gary, i was just like "Ohh my god i know magnets lets type".... Roller coasters, magnets and ionising radiation are my knowledge base.... it's a sad life.

 

[CGM]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Thanks Dave but I do already know how they work

All I'm saying is that while magnetic breaks run exponentially I still think that the train will be moving fast enough for a noticeable amount of power to be used opposing it. Not an amount you'd notice per cycle but over a whole day it would start to add up.

However a traditional anti-roll-back system doesn't have any effect on the power to run the lift at all (well it's negligible) and the only advantage of the newer system is that the train can be lowered if the chain snaps (something that I don't believe happens very often) or rolled back in an evacuation situation (again how often is this needed?)

That's what's bothering me about the always out fins theory, the system would be neater if they remained retracted while the car passes then released afterwords.

Surely in the case of a fail safe system such as anti-rollbacks, it's preferable to have a passive system rather than an active one. I know that Intamin rockets have pop-up brakes but there's not really a way around that as the train travels at speed in both directions.

Also, fewer moving parts and control systems generally means better reliability. The braking effect doesn't have to be particularly strong, it only has to arrest the drop of the train so that it can safely back onto the block brakes.

I suppose we will only find out if the fins are retractable as more pictures appear.

 

[BigDave]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

I cannot see any pneumatics on the photos that would suggest that the brake fins retract, but I could be wrong.

 

[Tim]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

[My Post]

But a traditional anti-rollback doesn't allow the train to reverse and vertical lift-hill evacuations are apparently a bit of a nightmare.

And sorry Gary, i was just like "Ohh my god i know magnets lets type".... Roller coasters, magnets and ionising radiation are my knowledge base.... it's a sad life.

Ah well if that is the case then that might be a reasonable reason for it. I wasn't aware if this was such a problem.

And I agree CGM a passive system is the best way to do it, But it just seems odd to have two mechanisms constantly opposing each other when one is only used in rare cases.

---

Anyway I just had a brainwave and realised drop towers have permanent fins and this effectively would be a drop tower if such an event occurred. So I went looking for a video of Apocolypse and it gives a good example of the difference in speed needed to prevent the fins from having an effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF0CFdhulC0#ws

As you can see it is going fairly slow before it passes the breaks, much slower than a normal Euro-fighter lift I'd predict.

 

[Rob]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

However a traditional anti-roll-back system doesn't have any effect on the power to run the lift at all (well it's negligible) and the only advantage of the newer system is that the train can be lowered if the chain snaps (something that I don't believe happens very often) or rolled back in an evacuation situation (again how often is this needed?)

In terms of how often is a vertical lift evacuation needed, I believe that it has never happened on Saw with guests riding. They'll have practised it obviously but they've never need to do it for real as it were. However Dave is right in saying vertical lift evacuations can be a bit of a nightmare, here is a photo of an evacuation on Huracan at Belantis:

Doesn't look fun for anyone! So I do think being able to reverse the train on the vertical lift is a really neat idea and probably worth it just in case it's needed.

 

[John]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

My guess is that they'll have stronger magnets towards the bottom of the lift and weaker ones further up, allowing for a controlled descent at relatively high speed before slowing down at the base of the lift.

 

[Dar]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

My guess is that they'll have stronger magnets towards the bottom of the lift and weaker ones further up, allowing for a controlled descent at relatively high speed before slowing down at the base of the lift.

I thought the magnets were on the train, and the fins were just a metal plate? Can they use thinner plates to achieve the same result?

 

[Dave]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Apocalypse will hit the breaks at a much greater speed than a falling Smiler car would, don't get me wrong the breaks will add something to the required energy to lift the cars up the hill but i imagine they have off-setted that somehow.

 

[Fredward]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

Imagine its just like trying to bring up a slightly heavier car. Yes you are wasting a bit of energy from the drag, but I would guess its only the equivalent of an extra couple of people.

So considering they carry double the amount of people up nemesis' lift hill, I don't think they will be to worried about losing that bit of energy from the fins.

 

[CGM]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

A thought just occurred to me, if the two sections of the coaster do as we suspect duel and assuming that both sides start climbing the lift hill at the same time, the train on the traditional lift hill has a greater distance to go than the vertical one.

So the vertical lift doesn't necessarily need to be in any great hurry. If a train arrives at the second lift around the time the next is dispatched from the station, it has even more time to play with.

There's a lot of variables that probably completely negate that idea and it assumes the first lift will use traditional anti-rollbacks but I was just throwing it out there.

 

[Olii]

Re: [The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation Part 2

The fins will create a resisting force, but they're probably the only way Alton could have a vertical lift with their mental H&S lot, they probably saw a vertical lift evac somewhere and said "lolnope."

And anyway, as said before, the resistance created by the fins at low speed will be fairly insignificant and the enhanced safety and ease of the safety systems created by the fins will probably be worth the extra running cost and inefficiency that they will bring.

I'm sure if there was a easier cheaper way to do it, while still conforming to the H&S requirements, Alton would have gone for that.