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The UKIPs.

BigT said:
And you accuse me of being condescending! What makes you think that all of these Eastern Europeans are happy just to be cabbage picking?
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They're doing a job like that to provide for their families, because doing jobs like that over here are sadly their best opportunity to attempt to succeed in this country, because they were unlucky enough to be born into a socio-economic situation that has led them to be forced to move to the other side of Europe to try and make their way in life, only to then be accused by the racists of this country that they're "stealing jobs" that many British people aren't interested in anyway.

And the reason they are "taking over" middle management jobs is because they have better employability skills than the British people who also applied for the job, because that's how getting a job in capitalism usually works.
 
GaryH said:
No, like thugs. Anyone who attacks someone else because they have different values, beliefs, religion, colour, whatever is just thuggery.
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So why the focus on minorities?

GaryH said:
If someone comes to live in the UK, they must abide by UK law
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Oddly enough if you break the law you get punished.

GaryH said:
they should be able to support themselves, have a basic grasp of the lingo
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This is fair.

GaryH said:
they should respect our traditions and beliefs which have existed in this country for thousands of years in the same way that we are expected to respect theirs
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What, paganism? Witch burning? Culture and beliefs are an ever changing thing. We're told to look down on places like Saudi Arabia for being autocratic for forcing everyone to act a certain way, then told we should be more like them, I don't get it.

GaryH said:
not come here to basically sponge off the state.
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This is not a thing that happens. You can't just rock up and claim all sorts, it's gotten tougher during the present Parliament and all parties plan to make it tougher.

BigT said:
Read my earlier post, they are now taking over middle management jobs, skilled engineering jobs and going to university during the evenings as well.
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Good for them. Isn't that what you want? Them to integrate, get on, not sponge or undercut?

BigT said:
They are like a cancer taking over from within,
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Peak Enoch Powell. He was wrong then, he still is today.

BigT said:
they only employ other poles once they get into a management position.
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This is illegal, we have laws here that demand people are hired on their ability, not their nationality. If anyone suspects they're being overlooked for a job because they weren't from a certain place, there are means to appeal.

I may just not be aware of it, but as far as I know, Spain doesn't have nearly as many complaints about English immigrants taking over its bars, opening English pubs or retiring and soaking up resources.
 
Adam said:
And the reason they are "taking over" middle management jobs is because they have better employability skills are cheaper than the British people who also applied for the job, because that's how getting a job in capitalism usually works.
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There you go I got that mistake for you.
 
BigT said:
So middle management and engineering jobs are minimum wage now?
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No, but you people seem to think every Polish person earns about £1.50 an hour regardless of job role, or atleast that's how you often come across as to more progressive and less xenophobic members of society.
 
I'll ignore the you people comment.
I work in an industry ravaged by Polish,
do you not think I know what they earn?
They all earn minimum wage or just slightly over and that includes middle management, Engineering or toilet cleaner.
So what's progressive about that? A 30k a year job now being done by someone for minimum wage?

now stop the name calling and debate properly.
 
Surely the only other alternative from a business and maximising profit point of view would be to relocate to a place where people would work for that? It's been done countlessly through the years, and if we'd have employed people for low wages here years ago then maybe we would have kept more manufacturing industries?

It's a question of what would you prefer, because if businesses can't get people to work the wages they deem viable, then they will fold or relocate.
 
That's a fair point Tom and one which the big multi nationals the likes of nestle and kraft are already doing by moving plants to Hungary and Poland.

But it's not an option for fresh produce like meat etc.
It has to be processed here in the UK and if the business owners are given the opportunity to cut costs they take it.
 
@Blaze
"Oddly enough if you break the law you get punished."

Under which law? UK or Sharia, because some parts of the country are only respecting sharia. Illegal as it may be, there are sharia courts already in existence in the UK.

Peak Enoch Powell said a lot of wrong, but one thing he did st which was right was that immigration should be controlled.

And, if we had listened to him, UKIP wouldn't even have been heard of.

That's all people want. Not a stop to immigration, just controlled immigration.
 
GaryH said:
@Blaze
"Oddly enough if you break the law you get punished."

Under which law? UK or Sharia, because some parts of the country are only respecting sharia. Illegal as it may be, there are sharia courts already in existence in the UK.

Peak Enoch Powell said a lot of wrong, but one thing he did st which was right was that immigration should be controlled.

And, if we had listened to him, UKIP wouldn't even have been heard of.

That's all people want. Not a stop to immigration, just controlled immigration.
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Doesn't matter whether people respect the law. You break it, you get punished. Unless you're wealthy, obviously.

Powell was an idiot. From a party that at the time wanted to deport black people.
 
BigT said:
I work in an industry ravaged by Polish,
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Polish are just people trying to make their way in the world, they aren't a strain of ebola, don't you think saying things like that is pretty heartless?

BigT said:
do you not think I know what they earn?
They all earn minimum wage or just slightly over and that includes middle management, Engineering or toilet cleaner.
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Sorry, but didn't you jump on me when I "assumed" that they all earned minimum wage about three posts ago?

BigT said:
So what's progressive about that?
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The concept of believing that there's more to this than thinking borders on the earth which really are nothing more than artificial lines drawn up hundreds of years* ago should be the difference between someone being allowed to take up a job position to feed their family. And the belief that maybe the people who the media tells us to blame, might just be used as scapegoats.

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

BigT said:
A 30k a year job now being done by someone for minimum wage?
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I agree with you, that's terrible. But my response to that is to be a socialist, not a xenophobe/racist/nationalist. That's progressivism, and the point I've been trying to make.


* Fair enough we're an island so that's not literally true, but the point still stands
 
Adam I'm a forty year old bloke earning over 60 grand a year do you not think I cannot make my own mind up from personal experience not from reading garbage in newspapers?
Socialism? Don't make me laugh.

I got where I am through hard work, I left school at 16 with nothing and did one of those scummy apprenticeship things you talked about earlier earning £30 per week(75p per hour), I didn't complain and blame everyone else I just got on with it and my talent got me promotions.
Granted I was lucky 20 years ago and houses were affordable so I managed to buy one and then move up the chain to a nice one now in a nice area near to AT.
Hopefully I will have made enough money to retire at 55.

Fast forward to now. If I were to leave school at 16 with nothing, there are no or very few appreciates and the only jobs available are minimum wage where I would be up against our cuddly friendly immigrant.
House prices are 15 times the minimum wage so I guess I would have to rent and then have to wait until I'm 70 to retire.

Yep, like you say we have progressed.
 
Apprenticeships were great back in the day. They taught people a trade, skills they wouldnt learn in school and paid them a wage and usually got them a job for life. There should be more of them now, but, the UK no longer has manufacturing in which many apprentices were employed.

And i've nothing against the Poles, they are very hard working people, some are very skilled and they do a good job.
 
I have to agree with @BigT - his views on how he's made his way are true. That's a near impossible route nowadays. Kids are demotivated, disenfranchised, all the rest of it.

I don't agree with everything he says, to be fair I think as polar as some of our views are, ironically I do believe we both respect WHY we have those views.

Whether or not I agree with them all, which I don't, is irrelevant, I DO understand how he's arrived at them being of a similar generation.

If you didn't witness that decline and why, it's pretty unreasonable to expect those who DID to not exercise the right to express those views.

Why it's changed, for better/worse and for who is a matter of HUGE debate, but actually, much of what he said in that last post in relation to the factual aspects of HOW he arrived at his present state is true.

I don't share his political views to be clear, but there are definitely truths in his words in this case.
 
BigT said:
Adam I'm a forty year old bloke earning over 60 grand a year do you not think I cannot make my own mind up from personal experience not from reading garbage in newspapers?
Socialism? Don't make me laugh.

I got where I am through hard work, I left school at 16 with nothing and did one of those scummy apprenticeship things you talked about earlier earning £30 per week(75p per hour), I didn't complain and blame everyone else I just got on with it and my talent got me promotions.
Granted I was lucky 20 years ago and houses were affordable so I managed to buy one and then move up the chain to a nice one now in a nice area near to AT.
Hopefully I will have made enough money to retire at 55.

Fast forward to now. If I were to leave school at 16 with nothing, there are no or very few appreciates and the only jobs available are minimum wage where I would be up against our cuddly friendly immigrant.
House prices are 15 times the minimum wage so I guess I would have to rent and then have to wait until I'm 70 to retire.

Yep, like you say we have progressed.
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That's funny BigT, a good example of those young people with no hope in hell of getting on the property market and struggling to find meaningful employment or pay for education are many of the younger members here, and you know what? They hedge their bets and don't blame it all on the Poles, instead having to grit their teeth while people taunt them with their 60 grand a year incomes flaunted as proof of wisdom, from a man who by his own admission, 'didn't complain'.

Incidentally, I have for reference, also managed to have sex with a Polish immigrant (it's not a house, but it'll do!), without getting my teeth kicked in by her very Polish ex-boyfriend, so maybe you're just getting something wrong there? I live in Manchester, and while tensions exist in poorer areas, I'm really proud to live in such a vibrant city at the end of the day. Of course, it can be dirty or occasionally dangerous in parts, but while I still love the look of British rural land and country, the atmosphere and attitude can be toxic.
 
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I'm sorry if it comes across as taunting it wasn't meant too.
I only put it out there to show that 20 odd years ago when I was leaving school yes you could go to university but it wasn't this if you don't go your thick and can't get on.
There were opportunities then as there had always been since the industrial revolution.

It can't just be coincidence that since over 5 million immigrants have flooded in over the last 15 or so years that the youth unemployment has rocketed, they may not be completely to blame but they are a major contribute.

That said it doesn't affect me but it greatly saddens me the youth of today don't get these opportunities, and if I was 18 again now I would be spitting mad that I have been let down by governments of my life time.
As TheMan says I've seen it happen with my own eyes, I've experienced the good and bad that immigration has brought, and that's why I and a lot of others have these (what a lot of you may consider extreme) views.

I do have an open mind though and enjoy and sometimes learn something from the opposite side of the debate.
I hope others share that same courtesy rather that just dismissing.
 
They've had an MP since 2010, four years before UKIP, and it didn't take the already elected MP defecting and winning again for them to do it. They're also the official opposition in a number of areas, including Liverpool.

So yes, they are a major party, but they don't toe the pro-austerity, pro-privatisation, pro invasion of privacy, anti-welfare, anti-immigration, lines that the other four do, and aren't funded by very rich and shady people, so they'll continue to be ignored.
 
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