The UKIPs.

[TheMan]

They've had an MP since 2010, four years before UKIP, and it didn't take the already elected MP defecting and winning again for them to do it. They're also the official opposition in a number of areas, including Liverpool.

So yes, they are a major party, but they don't toe the pro-austerity, pro-privatisation, pro invasion of privacy, anti-welfare, anti-immigration, lines that the other four do, and aren't funded by very rich and shady people, so they'll continue to be ignored.

People mistakenly think they would "open the floodgates" and be totally compliant to the EU. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

If people used a bit of logic, they'd realise a party borne from a desire to see a well managed resourceful planet isn't going to bow down to any EU laws going, and isn't going to suggest policies that place even more strain on resources.

The fact their backers have to prove to be ethical really goes to add more to the problem.

I'm not sure I'd want a Green majority parliament, as much as I support them, I don't think the country is ready for some of their policy and neither am I for that matter.

However, the fact they're still considered such a small party so much so they're not even a protest vote, given some of their policies and how much better off people's lives would be WITH them, is something I find unbelievably frustrating.

Natalie did once say to me she thought I'd make an excellent politician, given the fervor and passion I show on issues, but can you imagine me in the Commons? I've been put on moderation in here before for goodness sake, though tempting as it is to get into it, I just don't think I'd have the patience.

Calling Cameron "right honourable".

The Right **** more like.

 

[DiogoJ42]

Bit late to the party, but regarding speaking English...
Any Londoner who commutes by tube cannot fail to notice that these days it is a rarity to hear English spoken. I have often had days when it feels like I am the only native on the train.
.... And there's a simple reason for this. Tourists on holiday are excited, and chatting to their friends / family about what they are going to do / have just done. Meanwhile, us locals are often traveling alone, and it's not the done thing to talk to strangers on the tube.

 

[Martin]

It's odd how people just assume people with foreign voices live here, stealing a job or benefits, and aren't here on holiday, sampling the culture we love to brag about, or here on business, what with the City being pretty much the business capital of the world.

 

[Ted]

Bit late to the party, but regarding speaking English...
Any Londoner who commutes by tube cannot fail to notice that these days it is a rarity to hear English spoken. I have often had days when it feels like I am the only native on the train.
.... And there's a simple reason for this. Tourists on holiday are excited, and chatting to their friends / family about what they are going to do / have just done. Meanwhile, us locals are often traveling alone, and it's not the done thing to talk to strangers on the tube.

This is completely true, but it really only applies to mostly Central London. In the suburbs, it's even more of a rarity to hear people talking to each other because these tourists are about. Of course depending on how you look at it, that's actually a good thing

 

[GaryH]

Just to brush on what is happening in Paris at the moment, and which will no doubt give UKIP even more votes, one thing has to change whatever party comes into power.

The guys who killed the cartoonists were apparently well known to the intelligence services for terrorism related offences, yet were still allowed to live in France. No doubt due to human rights and all that crap.

I am infuriated that once again, people (actually, lets not call them people, lets call them scum), are allowed into another country, given a home, given benefits, get caught planning terrorist incidents, preach their hate behind closed doors in the name of their "religion" and are well known to the security forces, who are then released from prison, continue to be allowed to live in the country, and who then go on to kill.

These two scum should not have even been in France anymore. They should have been deported or rotting behind bars. But no doubt, the softy softy do gooders, and their lawyers get them out under their human rights.

ENOUGH. Whoever is in power next should make it clear that anyone - UK born or foreign immigrant, who lives here and goes on to commit a terrorist act, will be tried for treason and hanged. Anyone caught attempting to commit a terrorist act should be tried and if found guilty, should spend the rest of their life being bars doing hard labour.

No if's, no butts, no court of human rights baloney, its about time every country stands up against these fanatics and makes it crystal clear that there will be no more tolerance of it.

Absolutely fuming and its because of all this soft treatment these people have been given in the past that we are in this mess now, and its what is driving the votes behind parties like UKIP, and more worryingly for historic reasons, the surge of the right wing in Germany.

 

[TheMan]

Absolutely fuming and its because of all this soft treatment these people have been given in the past that we are in this mess now, and its what is driving the votes behind parties like UKIP, and more worryingly for historic reasons, the surge of the right wing in Germany.

Obviously I wouldn't necessarily agree with everything you say, but one thing is obvious to me that last paragraph is right!

I am extremely Liberally minded, but COMMON SENSE should be applied!

If you do continue to allow this extremism and do not acknowledge that different cultures RARELY live well together as a WHOLE (not individuals) without proper programs of social integration, which is normal, these are complex, ingrained at times BRAINWASHED belief systems that are physically programmed into people - and yes, before anyone disagrees just research it, it IS programmed in, the brain does work that way - then there are going to be problems.

There are sociopaths in life, quite a lot of them, according to a psychologist I discussed this with who was carrying out in depth studies on the matter, many politicians exhibited obvious sociopathic tendencies, and then there are people who have been brainwashed and become almost robotic - with their own personal filter systems making it impossible for them to reason or feel remorse for their actions.

Some people are born bad it seems. Unfortunately. Many others are then programmed into that way of thought.

The largely Liberal tendency to be blaze about it doesn't work. And the cruel irony of that ambivalence and desire to let everyone have freedom at whatever cost, is the people they let have that freedom, then want to quash everyone elses!

Thus breeds the far-right.

Liberal ideals at their extreme fuel the far right.

Ultimately, ironically, resulting in NOTHING being truly liberal.

 

[Martin]

No doubt due to human rights and all that crap.

Listen to yourself. If you think human rights are crap, please feel free to give them up, just don't complain when they're violated. You are aware that no human rights act says you can't be punished for being found guilty, I'm sure? I can't imagine you're against the right to fair trial, the right of access to clean water, to be paid for labour? Governments love to use things like this to take away all our rights and people like you gladly lap it up. They're on camera shooting people. They will stand accused, a jury will look at the evidence and find them guilty. If one person doesn't get a fair trial they can take that right from all of us.

I am infuriated that once again, people (actually, lets not call them people, lets call them scum), are allowed into another country, given a home, given benefits, get caught planning terrorist incidents, preach their hate behind closed doors in the name of their "religion" and are well known to the security forces, who are then released from prison, continue to be allowed to live in the country, and who then go on to kill.

Obviously you missed their very French accents. It's so easy to blame the other, "it's those foreigners", then people like Breivik come along and that makes it difficult for people like you, because he wasn't brown or Muslim.

ENOUGH. Whoever is in power next should make it clear that anyone - UK born or foreign immigrant, who lives here and goes on to commit a terrorist act, will be tried for treason and hanged. Anyone caught attempting to commit a terrorist act should be tried and if found guilty, should spend the rest of their life being bars doing hard labour.

People who are found guilty go to jail. That's what jail is for. Also, if you support capital punishment, you first. You know who loves capital punishment? Saudi Arabia and the DPRK. States we think of as savage.

They should have been deported or rotting behind bars. But no doubt, the softy softy do gooders, and their lawyers get them out under their human rights.

If you honestly think the people responsible will be found innocent you're a lunatic. 'Softy softy do gooders', hilarious reading phrases like that outside the Daily Mail. Good luck finding anyone other than their fellow Jihad supporting clowns that actually think they should be let go.

Some people are born bad it seems.

Problem is, people can be changed. But it's difficult, as at the moment both sides fuel each other. This attack has made the far right angrier, which in turn will push the Islamists further, and push more Muslims towards become extreme as a response to the increased level of hatred they feel. So the far right again become more aggressive and the cycle continues. All this of course with the current and historic invasions and oppressions of Islamic countries by the west. Let's not forget the the publication made a number of racist and baiting covers, which doesn't justify the attack but fuels the feeling of mutual hate, and the French government funding the next issue won't help either. The cycle needs to be broken, but it's difficult, both groups are fanatical and ignorant, led by hatred and extreme, vile ideologies that put them at odds with each other. Any attempt to assist one side to break the cycle will be seen by the other side to be support for the first side, making them angrier - Groups such as the EDL need the idea that the government, the media, and the 'liberals' are against them to fuel the anger that they need.

We need to come down hard on 'terrorism', but what people on the far right/Daily Mail readers don't seem to realise is, we broadly do already. Many people have been sent down for a long time for conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism, the government often use terrorism to change laws, allowing them to hold people for longer without trial. And of course America is in trouble for using torture and for being able to detain anyone for an indefinite amount of time, without charge. Which is terrifying. We can not allow monsters to convince us to give up our civil liberties and become totalitarian states. That, after all, is what they want.

 

[TheMan]

We can not allow monsters to convince us to give up our civil liberties and become totalitarian states. That, after all, is what they want.

Exactly!

On one side (remembering we're dealing with extremes here) you have the Cleric saying that "Muslim's don't believe in freedom of speech", then on the other you have the CIA performing interrogation methods way outside the realms of justice, and other agencies and goverments using it as an excuse to snoop into every area of our lives!

NEITHER want freedom. And NEITHER have the damn right to rob the rest of us of it!!

 

[Martin]

A Tory MP today is trying to use the Paris attack as a justification to remove the human rights act. The people in charge lick their lips over stuff like this. False flag conspiracies may be a stretch too far to believe (although, how many terrorist attacks since 9/11 have been aimed at the politicians declaring wars on Islamic states, and not innocent civilians, interesting, isn't it?), but let's not pretend for one second the elites don't love a good bit of terrorism.

 

[TheMan]

I tell you this, it's a phrase that stuck with me forever when I worked in Stock Broking:

"Nothing like a war to stimulate the economy".

 

[GaryH]

Blaze, with all due respect, your COMPLETELY missing the point I was trying to make, and before you commence with the insults, I suggest you re-read my post again. The point I was trying to make was two fold.

First - the security services KNEW about these people. They had been sent to jail in the past. Where they are from doesn't matter as such, but they were Algerian immigrants, previously convicted of terrorism related offences. So my question was WHY were they allowed to continue to live in France, given that they abused their right to live there, and were a threat to national security. Know, if we compare this to the likes of Abu-Hamza, he only remained in the UK so long, and at such cost to us, due to his "human rights". No doubt, other threats to national security only remain in countries due to this act. And your point about them not being Muslim or brown, umm, like I said in my original post if you had cared to read it properly, it doesn't matter if they are immigrant, or born in the country where the act takes place, they should receive the same punishment, black, blue, pink, white, muslim, indian, british, french, whatever, crime is universal regardless of race or country.

So, first point, they WERE found guilty previously, they WERE sent to jail, they WERE a threat and they WERE known to the security services. Yet, they were released, allowed to continue to live in France and went on to do this. As far as giving up my human rights - first point, if I were to go out and attempt to kill or actually kill people, then I lose my human rights because I have shown I have no respect for the life of others. I cannot expect to hide behind this act. Its probably one of the most abused acts of law used by criminals. Oh yeah, they want their human rights respected, but they couldn't give a toss about the people they are killing eh.

By the way, the right to clean water, I don't consider that right, its a luxury that unfortunately others cannot relate to and not something I take for granted in the same way I don't expect to flick a lightswitch and have light.

Secondly, this softly softly approach, you mention countries which have capital punishment. You forgot the USA. And there is a difference. Countries like N Korea use it to control dissent towards their dear leader. The USA convict people of crimes worthy of the death sentence and punish them accordingly. When someone goes to court, what happens? Their right is to have legal representation. Yeah, sure we got CCTV footage, but someone will have the legal job of trying to defend them. Yeah they will get found guilty, other murderer's have, like they were also found guilty before, and what happens then? They eventually get let back out after a few years. So my point is, if these murderer's are caught, and then convicted, (no doubt they wouldn't be), then they should be executed, they don't deserve to live, and no doubt, when they are released, they will do it again. Ultimately, they are committing treason, a crime which was punishable by death up until 1973. Ironically, these two only met up with each other because they met up in prison.

Anyway, if you think these people are worthy of any human rights, or being put up in a nice comfy prison for a few years at the cost of the tax payer, then, with all respect, the lunatic is not I.

 

[Martin]

So you're saying no one should be released at the end of a sentence? The justice system decided they were safe to re-enter society. They were obviously wrong but that doesn't make them 'softy softy liberal do-gooders'. If terrorists should be deported, where should Breivik have been deported to? Surely it makes more sense to keep terrorists in the country where it's easier to monitor them, than it is to send them elsewhere? The people who's job it is to monitor people like these gunmen failed at their job, what that has to do with liberalism or human rights, I'm not sure. Human rights stop when you stop being human. Unfortunately killing is something this species is good at. What separates us from them if we get to take human rights away too?

Clean water is a requirement to live, see how long and how well you last without it, it is a right that all humans should have access to, it's the most basic need and there is no justification for it to not be a privilege.

The USA has been at war pretty much non-stop since WW2. It has invaded dozens of countries, funded coups against democratically elected governments and proped up dictators such as Pinochet. It's no surprise that it loves just as much to kill its own. Who decides what crimes are worthy of the death penalty? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. What's the difference between the death penalty and murder? That it's state-sanctioned. It's still taking a life but we can all feel good about it because we're told by the people who love to start wars that it's ok. States shouldn't get to decide who lives or dies. There's a reason murder is illegal, no one has the right to end the life of another, you rightly get punished if you do, so why is it ok for some people to take a life without punishment? Murder is murder. If the state can start saying "well he deserved it" so can common murderers. In fact, isn't "you deserved it" pretty much the justification terrorists give? Imagine how angry the terrorists will get if we start killing the ones we catch? People who go on gun rampages don't get released, they get life inside. By the way, in America, states that have abolished it have less murder. It's almost as if it doesn't work.

Treason is laughable, how do you commit a crime against a state? States aren't physical things. Treason was invented by the ruling class to protect themselves, because they viewed themselves as separate from the rest of us, deserving special protection. Murder is murder, no matter who the victim is. If treason is a real crime, then surely the governments that send their own people to die in wars deserve to be punished under it more.

In your beloved America, execution costs more than a life sentence and no more people die. It would do here if we were stupid enough to bring it back. I'm quite happy to pay taxes for that. I'm less happy about my taxes going towards pointless wars. You want to pay for people to die because some man in a wig has decided it's ok.

I'm also even less happy for my taxes to go towards the royal family.
Team Edit: Potentially libellous text removed as it relates to ongoing legal case

 

[TheMan]

It's true. Top politicians are just game players on the whole serving themselves.

Not ALL politicians are, but they're more like Members of Parliament. Civil Servants.

Look at Cameron, claimed every benefit going for his poor son (not sarcasm), gets into power, robs families of it and blames Labour for a global sub prime lending based economic collapse!

How about all the people who've died as a result of his choking the support state? No I'm not on about people who just don't want to work etc, I am on about the people who have been victims and died.

All over the news?

Hardly.

And UKIP would be worse!

 

[GaryH]

Firstly, it's not my beloved USA ( seriously, sip making things up I'm not saying) , I'm not a fan of the USA truth be known and think the world would be a more peaceful place without their interference in everything.

Secondly, Prince Andrew hasn't even been found guilty yet or put on trial so at tbd moment he is innocent until proven guilty.

Thirdly, if you'd rather pay your taxes towards keeping a mass murderer behind bars than pay towards the royal family (fan of them or not) then I don't think there is much anyone can say about that is there.......

Lastly, no, I don't think people should be released from prison if they are given a life sentience. LIFE should mean life and they should die behind bars.

 

[Martin]

The royals are responsible for more murder than all the murderers in jail. And that's just WW1. You think it's mad to pay to keep dangerous people locked up, but not mad to pay for a family to have immeasurable power over us without doing anything in return. It's a shame we didn't copy the French and throw them out.

I find it interesting how quickly it's not news any more. As if this new event suddenly makes a credible accusation against a member of the royal family who is known to associate with a notorious nonce not-news. It is. We pay for him to hang around with Epstein on expensive boats. Remember that picture of him with a 17 year old? Innocent until proven guilty, yes, but it's still news. As is the fact that just before this news, they used their power to pull a documentary, and made themselves exempt from freedom of information requests. 250 years into capitalism and democracy yet these feudal parasites still remain. Why don't they have to sign on like all the other benefit claimants?

Life in these cases means life. And in the odd case when it doesn't, it rightly results in scandal. I think people who support the death penalty outside crimes against humanity, war crimes, genocide, should volunteer to go first, to prove just how good it is.

 

[TheMan]

I want to thank @Blaze for this beautiful 5 minute piece of documentary brilliance. It adds HUGE credence to his points.

Quite why he didn't post it I don't know. But everyone should watch it. It wraps up everything I've been trying to say and adds a whole new level in just 5 minutes and will make you think more carefully and step back from events and watch them from a little bit further distant.

This is superb. All final year GCSE students should be made to watch this, or they should have it playing on TV screens in front of every polling station in the country.

Shows what odious little worms are running things! It's definitely on point for this debate.

Can you put your own "filters" and preconceptions away, and realise just how far you've been sucked into the modality of thinking "they" want?

One of the most exceptional five minutes of documentary I've ever watched. Having studied human behaviour etc for 10 years just as a "hobby" if you like, this is very much grounded in fact as to how it would affect people.

Can't believe I'd not seen it. Should be mandatory to watch.

 

[Martin]

I forgot to point this out when he was mentioned, but he's relevant to that video.

Abu Hamza was on the MI5 payroll. His job was to be horrible, a hate figure, but to also control the radical element of British Muslims, so that the government knew what they were all up to. While at the same time they used him as an example of how 'dangerous' and 'out of control' radical Islam is. It's so difficult to know what's real and what isn't any more. All that we can be sure of is, white, brown, theist, atheist, native, immigrant, we're all being laughed at by the people in charge while they go around raping children, covering their tracks and removing our rights while we fight amongst ourselves, calling anyone pointing this absurdity out a radical communist.

 

[TheMan]

I forgot to point this out when he was mentioned, but he's relevant to that video.

Abu Hamza was on the MI5 payroll. His job was to be horrible, a hate figure, but to also control the radical element of British Muslims, so that the government knew what they were all up to. While at the same time they used him as an example of how 'dangerous' and 'out of control' radical Islam is.

Where's that information from?

But yes it's a perfect example if that's being said, create polar opposites. The George Osborne one is brilliant and easily provable, he's said things that are totally contradicting. Also blaming Labour for the global ecomomic collapse, yet you hardly actually hear Labour defending against it in any meaningful way which utterly baffles me.

And when you start considering those things, the fact it makes no sense, begins to make sense.

All you have to do, is make sure everyone knows, so they then go find someone who does talk sense. The quiet whispers on the wind rather than the gobshites parading round at the moment like Cameron, Gideon, Farage et al.

 

[Martin]

His defence lawyer made the claim and produced reports supposedly from Scotland Yard. He apparently has previously said they first contacted him in 1997 too.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...d-for-MI5-to-keep-streets-of-London-safe.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...5-to-keep-streets-of-london-safe-9334601.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27321235

It's preposterous Labour caused the crash. Of course, they continued the deregulation in this country and the EU, but the global economy crashed, not just here, so it's not Labour who are to blame, and the deficit was not only less than it is now, it was shrinking. (It's also impossible under fractional reserve to pay off, but that's another story) But Labour can't argue back because they'd have to blame the banks, who fund, and therefore have control over them. They won't bite the hand that feeds.

 

[TheMan]

You know, all these protest votes, rallies etc, I'd like to propose something different.

Millions on the streets just applauding.

You know the ironic football ones?

Imagine that. With a banner for what you're applauding for.