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The UKIPs.
- Thread starter Meat Pie
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TheMan
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Not really. More commenting from someone on something reported in the press. Not like he made it up. I have no opinion on the matter for clarity at this moment.
Not sure which other liberal drivel you mean in this case, but I've seen some rather comprehensive arguments, and as I respected your experience in the food industry, I'll hope you'll be as respectful to my experience of the City...
BigT
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It wasn't your posts I was referring to.
TheMan
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Ahh right apologies.
Adam
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In regards to the Charlie Hebdo incident mentioned earlier, I find it pretty tragic that the fact that one of the police officers killed by the jihadists was actually a Muslim does nothing to detract from the whole "all muslims want to kill all westerners" BS the mainstream right wing like to believe. Because it seems nothing confirms to the daily express types that the average muslim living in Europe supports radical Wahhabism more than seeing a muslim being murdered in cold blood by jihadists...
TheMan
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I read this just based on your post @Adam
http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.or...wahhabi-roots-and-current-representation.html
So basically, this new "Islam" is not actually Islam. There is condemnation and what seems a genuine appeal for assistance in those words.
http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.or...wahhabi-roots-and-current-representation.html
So basically, this new "Islam" is not actually Islam. There is condemnation and what seems a genuine appeal for assistance in those words.
Adam
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Pretty much, though I suppose that's quite open to interpretation. Islam in general was probably on par progressively with Christianity up until the 1800's, when the extremely conservative movements, most prominently Wahhabism, started to gain support in the middle east, and then in the 20th century several Islamic countries such as Afghanistan and Iran had their more liberal and modern governments replaced by the backwards ones we unfortunately have today, In the case of Afghanistan this is directly the result of the US, Reagan supported the Taliban on the basis they were against the Soviet invasion in the 1980's, so yet more proof that western imperialism is a pretty terrible thing for humanity.
Overall, this has resulted in the tragically high amounts of backwards and radicalised extremists we have today who call themselves muslims (who, for the record, despite the right wing's weird claims about most people in "the loony left" being apologetic for, I despise and think have no place in the 21st century), although what a lot of people sadly forget is that there's over a billion muslims in the world today, so if all of them truly did want to take over the world, they'd have managed it decades ago. And then there's massive double standards considering the amount of Christian terrorists that exist such as Anders Breivik or Timothy McVeigh, plus it's worth voting that before Wednesday the terrorist attack with the highest number of fatalities in France was actually caused by right wing extremists in protest to Algeria gaining independence.
TheMan
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Double Post:
A rather remarkable one, and I am not exactly bothered by his reasons behind, most likely he doesn't fancy being the only one on the right with competition - namely UKIP and Libs, and wants Labour to get a kick in the nuts too - but David Cameron has REFUSED to take park in TV debates without The Green Party involved as a "question of fairness".
His motives, as always, are no doubt clever and self serving - however the result, I will take that! Now it makes Miliband look an arse for saying "the PM "owes it to the people" to take part."
Well yes, that's true Red, but why don't you try saying "I agree with him, we should not have some minor parties excluded"
Oh, read a bit more, yup as I suspected lol:
The BBC's Nick Robinson said the PM's private view was "if we, the Conservatives, are to get hurt by the people to our right, UKIP, then Labour and the Liberal Democrats should get hurt by people to their left, the Green Party".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30726499
And you know what? I could NOT agree with Cameron more!!
If the Tories ARE going to get whipped by UKIP, I would LOVE to watch Natalie tear into Clegg and Red
Now THAT is a debate I will gladly watch! She'd tear them to shreds, and Cameron wont fear her, they actually share some common ground on EU referendums etc so she's not a real threat to him, everyone knows their views are often diametrically opposed but may be surprised by some of their "common ground". It's not really common, but it's more common than Labour/LibDem Vs Green in terms of their views on Europe.
Another very clever play by Cameron. I don't like the man, but good gracious he's a clever man. Shame he doesn't put that to better use, he could probably be a good prime minister if he did. A pity.
A rather remarkable one, and I am not exactly bothered by his reasons behind, most likely he doesn't fancy being the only one on the right with competition - namely UKIP and Libs, and wants Labour to get a kick in the nuts too - but David Cameron has REFUSED to take park in TV debates without The Green Party involved as a "question of fairness".
His motives, as always, are no doubt clever and self serving - however the result, I will take that! Now it makes Miliband look an arse for saying "the PM "owes it to the people" to take part."
Well yes, that's true Red, but why don't you try saying "I agree with him, we should not have some minor parties excluded"
Oh, read a bit more, yup as I suspected lol:
The BBC's Nick Robinson said the PM's private view was "if we, the Conservatives, are to get hurt by the people to our right, UKIP, then Labour and the Liberal Democrats should get hurt by people to their left, the Green Party".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30726499
And you know what? I could NOT agree with Cameron more!!
If the Tories ARE going to get whipped by UKIP, I would LOVE to watch Natalie tear into Clegg and Red
Now THAT is a debate I will gladly watch! She'd tear them to shreds, and Cameron wont fear her, they actually share some common ground on EU referendums etc so she's not a real threat to him, everyone knows their views are often diametrically opposed but may be surprised by some of their "common ground". It's not really common, but it's more common than Labour/LibDem Vs Green in terms of their views on Europe.
Another very clever play by Cameron. I don't like the man, but good gracious he's a clever man. Shame he doesn't put that to better use, he could probably be a good prime minister if he did. A pity.
BigT
TS Member
I think Cameron would be quite happy not doing the debates, they cost him a majority last time in my opinion.
He's not a quick thinker so he struggles with it, goes back to the fact he's never run anything.
Now Fararge like him or loath him on the other hand has, he has run a business so has that street toughness and quick thinking.
Miliband will be useless in them but has nothing to loose and Clegg well he's going to be irrelevant soon.
I have to say I don't know much about the greens and what their leader has done in the past.
I would like to see just 2 debates, one with all 5 and then one between Cameron and Miliband, let's face facts one of these two is going to be PM and god help us if it's the latter.
I've also heard the SNP going off on one as well saying they should be on the debates, well I've and easy answer to that, when you field candidates in majority of the country then we might take you seriously.
He's not a quick thinker so he struggles with it, goes back to the fact he's never run anything.
Now Fararge like him or loath him on the other hand has, he has run a business so has that street toughness and quick thinking.
Miliband will be useless in them but has nothing to loose and Clegg well he's going to be irrelevant soon.
I have to say I don't know much about the greens and what their leader has done in the past.
I would like to see just 2 debates, one with all 5 and then one between Cameron and Miliband, let's face facts one of these two is going to be PM and god help us if it's the latter.
I've also heard the SNP going off on one as well saying they should be on the debates, well I've and easy answer to that, when you field candidates in majority of the country then we might take you seriously.
Tom
TS Member
You're all correct.
The debates cost him the majority last time because of Clegg's brilliant performance.
This time there will be no majority in any event, but the debates would stop the Conservatives having the most seats for sure. UKIP and the Greens would benefit the most.
The Lib Dems are going to get hammered yes, but I think Clegg will perform better than people think - and I think they will hold on to enough seats that will give them the balance of power once again. I know there was the tuition fees factor, but in general they have helped curbed the Conservatives.
I strongly oppose the massaging of the genitals of the "two main parties" all the time. This pathetic argument where it's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives and nothing else is a LIE that is self-perpetuated by the way the media covers British politics. The days of majority governments are OVER - at least in the short term. People are waking up to the fact now that there are other choices.
The debates cost him the majority last time because of Clegg's brilliant performance.
This time there will be no majority in any event, but the debates would stop the Conservatives having the most seats for sure. UKIP and the Greens would benefit the most.
The Lib Dems are going to get hammered yes, but I think Clegg will perform better than people think - and I think they will hold on to enough seats that will give them the balance of power once again. I know there was the tuition fees factor, but in general they have helped curbed the Conservatives.
I strongly oppose the massaging of the genitals of the "two main parties" all the time. This pathetic argument where it's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives and nothing else is a LIE that is self-perpetuated by the way the media covers British politics. The days of majority governments are OVER - at least in the short term. People are waking up to the fact now that there are other choices.
BigT
TS Member
Well I hope you are wrong on that last point.
Majority governments give a clear mandate from the electorate and you get what the highest percentage of the country voted for.
Coalition governments are flawed because you end up with small party's with a low percentage of voters always holding the balance of power and you can't get rid of them. (They just keep swapping sides)
Pause for a minute and think of the civil unrest that will occur in England if the Tories end up with the most seats of any party and then Liebour and SNP (voting on issues that don't affect them) do a deal to make a small majority government.
That won't be acceptable to the English, there will be riots on a scale unknown in this country.
Majority governments give a clear mandate from the electorate and you get what the highest percentage of the country voted for.
Coalition governments are flawed because you end up with small party's with a low percentage of voters always holding the balance of power and you can't get rid of them. (They just keep swapping sides)
Pause for a minute and think of the civil unrest that will occur in England if the Tories end up with the most seats of any party and then Liebour and SNP (voting on issues that don't affect them) do a deal to make a small majority government.
That won't be acceptable to the English, there will be riots on a scale unknown in this country.
TheMan
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Biggest chance of riots in the UK is a Tory majority. Just as is always the case with a Tory majority. They go hand in hand.
Not having a majority government is in fact the best way, I think the UK needed rebalancing from Labour. Blair love him or loathe him, I was around some of the better projects Labour did and saw the influence they had on creating better chances for kids to excel. What they ATTEMPTED was fantastic in many regards, how they did it was the usual mess. There was however, seeds planted and beginning to bear fruit. Tories destroyed it. Absolutely obliterated it. They couldn't stand things that were doing well under Labour and attacked the lot, they are VICIOUS at that.
They're ruthless. To the degree of it being ideological and damaging. Look at the crisis in social care now, same old Tory bull. So yes, I can see @Tom's point I DO think the Lib Dems moderated them, probably more than we know. I think with a bit more gumption Clegg could have come out of this with higher credibility, but it's obvious to me that Tories have now moved from the Centre/Right into full on right wing ideological tripe. Same as Labour are moving back to their traditional left wing ideological tripe. Blair again, spot on, it's back to the old Right/Left warfare
BUT.
The UK has moved on. And that's why I want EITHER party moderated by another, neither do I want a left wing Labour, nor a right wing Tory without being moderated by someone like The Greens or, yes, the Lib Dems.
SNP and Labour though. Even as a Liberal/Socialist but with centre views on business etc and some slightly right on certain issues - the idea of that, for the future of this country, that cannot be allowed to happen.
Tom
TS Member
This government is the most democratically elected we've had for decades. 59% of voters voted for one of the two parties that make up the government.
Our voting system does NOT return strong mandates as a majority can be won with 30% of the vote - IE 70% of people voted for something other than the winning party. How is that a strong mandate?
What you mean @BigT , and what the Conservatives mean, is the voting system can return powerful governments that don't have to answer to anyone or hammer out deals. That's wrong.
Our voting system does NOT return strong mandates as a majority can be won with 30% of the vote - IE 70% of people voted for something other than the winning party. How is that a strong mandate?
What you mean @BigT , and what the Conservatives mean, is the voting system can return powerful governments that don't have to answer to anyone or hammer out deals. That's wrong.
Martin
TS Member
I'd point out that commenting on allegations that have been in the news recently and have been rumoured for years isn't libellous. nothing I have said about the royals is libel or slander. I'd also point out that being against the death penalty for the same reason I'm against any other murder, and thinking everyone should have access to clean water does not make me a liberal. I'd finally point out that as far as I know I haven't lied and if anyone thinks I have they should point out where. But I'd be pointing it out to a grown man who writes 'Liebour' so I'd be wasting my time.
British politics is fast approaching what they had in the USSR. In the USSR you could only vote for candidates of one party, all with pretty much identical views, and local governments were in effect just agents of the central government with no real autonomy. The only difference is we still maintain the illusion than there's any real difference between the four major parties. They all want the same things and their strings are all pulled by the same people. We've reached the stage where Labour's policies almost literally are "what they Tories will do, but softened a little".
It's somewhat false to say this government is the most democratically elected for a long time. 59% may have voted for the parties, but no one voted for them to share power or how that relationship would work. I doubt the Lib Dems have made much difference, I remember them celebrating when they added a clause to the gagging bill that made it infinitesimally less bad, and on the whole they've voted for Tory policies.
British politics is fast approaching what they had in the USSR. In the USSR you could only vote for candidates of one party, all with pretty much identical views, and local governments were in effect just agents of the central government with no real autonomy. The only difference is we still maintain the illusion than there's any real difference between the four major parties. They all want the same things and their strings are all pulled by the same people. We've reached the stage where Labour's policies almost literally are "what they Tories will do, but softened a little".
It's somewhat false to say this government is the most democratically elected for a long time. 59% may have voted for the parties, but no one voted for them to share power or how that relationship would work. I doubt the Lib Dems have made much difference, I remember them celebrating when they added a clause to the gagging bill that made it infinitesimally less bad, and on the whole they've voted for Tory policies.
You know what, for the first time ever I genuinely honestly do not know who to vote for.
Conservatives - well, they seem the best of the bunch at the moment only because they will offer some form of stability in the economy at the moment
Labour - hate them, hate them, hate them, have dragged this country through the dirt and just just look at the state of the Labour run NHS in Wales, absolute shambles
Lib Dem - umm, who are they again? What do they do? Are they still around?
UKIP - ok so they say they will introduce tougher immigration controls, but, I dont want to leave Europe, and they will ruin the economy and the NHS
Greens - there are enough taxes on transport and fuel at the moment, I dont want to be taxed even more for getting to and from work or going on holiday so they wont get my vote
I may just vote Monster Raving Loony because I dont think ANY single party offers what people want. Another coalition of parties is the only answer.....perhaps....
Conservatives - well, they seem the best of the bunch at the moment only because they will offer some form of stability in the economy at the moment
Labour - hate them, hate them, hate them, have dragged this country through the dirt and just just look at the state of the Labour run NHS in Wales, absolute shambles
Lib Dem - umm, who are they again? What do they do? Are they still around?
UKIP - ok so they say they will introduce tougher immigration controls, but, I dont want to leave Europe, and they will ruin the economy and the NHS
Greens - there are enough taxes on transport and fuel at the moment, I dont want to be taxed even more for getting to and from work or going on holiday so they wont get my vote
I may just vote Monster Raving Loony because I dont think ANY single party offers what people want. Another coalition of parties is the only answer.....perhaps....