Thorpe Park: General Discussion

[James]

Post-2004 Tussauds is pretty similar as Merlin now. Even Towers is going down the same road.

Merlin isn't quite as bad as DIC Tussauds just yet however they are certainly going that way.

 

[jon81uk]

Merlin are slowly seeping into acting like DIC... Minimalistic investments of relatively low-ish quality (just with more thematic elements, not that they make much sense) with very little focus on producing a quality product...

Whilst Thorpe are certainly improving matters in other front, the phrase "The only way is up" comes to mind...

But I don't think Tussauds were any better or worse than Merlin, all seems pretty much the same to me. Tidal Wave (Tussauds era) is very well themed as is Swarm (Merlin era). Colossus and the rest of Lost City are not great themes (Tussauds era) and neither is Storm Surge (Merlin era).

I think Angry Birds will be just fine, not the most amazing but good enough for a few years, look at Beanoland at Chessington, most of that was plywood cut-outs and it lasted 10years! Fibreglass and vinyl should last 5 years anyway, by which point they will probably want to put a new 4D film in.

Lost City in it's hey-day looked pretty good, but I was more thinking towards any additions post 2004 in the parks, like Spinball, Fury, Stealth, Rita, Charlie, Bubbles retheme... All of them put in at minimal cost designed for maximum profits...

Whilst Swarm and Smiler are better than these additions, there's still a distinct lack of quality that was seen in the 1990s and the original design of Amity Cove...

It's harsh to say Lost City isn't a great theme, it once was quite well done when the rides were suitably themed (i.e. Zodiac and Quantum) and actually played the area's music... Especially comparing it to Storm Surge, which just isn't themed at all...

Lost City feels a very generic, we can put any flat ride in with some bushes and swirly paint and a rock theme. Yes they have tried to tie together a lot of rides that don't quite fit together but they could of found rides that were better fits to start with.
Storm surge also has a token effort to try and theme it to Amity with the hillbillies signage, but thats about it, similar to when Rush was added to Lost City, its a bit token effort.

Recent additions do seem to be back to the original 90s levels, it was the mid-2000s that had some dodgy ones (Imperial Leather seemed to cause a two of them!) but The Smiler, The Swarm and Mutiny Bay are all decent. Although I do think Land of the Dragons wasn't bad when it was built, they have just let it go to rot.

My original point though is that its not "Merlin" that has caused the bad ideas. There was just as many dodgy ones when Tussauds's owned the parks. A lot of people just blame Merlin for bad things but recently there have been many good additions too. Some of the tying together of the parks (like the Burger Kitchen brand) seem good as it replicates good ideas everywhere and keeps costs down by bulk buying, plus it is no worse than when they brought KFC & McDonalds into the parks in 1998.

 

[Benzin]

Post-2004 Tussauds is pretty similar as Merlin now. Even Towers is going down the same road.

Merlin isn't quite as bad as DIC Tussauds just yet however they are certainly going that way.

Merlin I don't think will get THAT bad, mainly because they have made a huge positive change to a few things (the in-house food and merch)... However they keep letting the parks rot then that'll all be for nought...

But the ideas and additions recently just seem to lack a real spark of true quality... And the obsessive nature of things needing an USP rather than just being a good addition is the big worry for me... Smiler and Swarm are both good examples of rides that seem to have had a lot of good ideas flowing around them, but for one reason or another just lack that idea that takes them to the level of Nemesis, Vampire or Oblivion when they opened...

Thorpe with Angry Birds is currently showing a great inability to bring in a good quality product to support the park... The idea of re-opening the 4D Cinema and adding some Dodgems is a lovely idea and fits their wanting to attract the family market (ok, that's because financially, they're rubbish), but tagging Angry Birds on it shows what Merlin are like, it NEEDS to have something to entice people... No Merlin, what the park needs is to be of good quality... It means allowing guests to enjoy their day and want to spend money, not being bombarded with upsells, rotting theming and dodgy operations...

There-in lies the issue, it seems that Merlin think that repairing/repainting stuff in the off season isn't worth the effort because it doesn't bring in the guests... Such a mindset is what's hurting the parks more, as we saw when DIC were in charge...

 

[CoasterCrazyChris]

Colossus and the rest of Lost City are not great themes (Tussauds era) and neither is Storm Surge (Merlin era).

There is very clearly a marked difference in quality between Storm Surge and the Lost City area.

I would accept that the rides in Lost City are not highly themed but the area is one of the best landscaped of any park in the UK and along with the area music creates a really immersive atmosphere. As a theme it really does feel like someone has put thought into its creative design even if it does feel a little more style over substance at times.

On the other hand there is nothing to say about Storm Surge which hasn't already been said - it is an abomination of an attraction in all respects. Possibly the worst investment of any major theme park in Britain ever.

To compare the two as the same is frankly ludicrous.

 

[jon81uk]

But the ideas and additions recently just seem to lack a real spark of true quality... And the obsessive nature of things needing an USP rather than just being a good addition is the big worry for me... Smiler and Swarm are both good examples of rides that seem to have had a lot of good ideas flowing around them, but for one reason or another just lack that idea that takes them to the level of Nemesis, Vampire or Oblivion when they opened...

Don't forget Vampire & Nemesis were both UK firsts and Oblivion and Air were world firsts, the USP thing is nothing new, the Tussaud's parks have always been chasing after world firsts.

Thorpe with Angry Birds is currently showing a great inability to bring in a good quality product to support the park... The idea of re-opening the 4D Cinema and adding some Dodgems is a lovely idea and fits their wanting to attract the family market (ok, that's because financially, they're rubbish), but tagging Angry Birds on it shows what Merlin are like, it NEEDS to have something to entice people... No Merlin, what the park needs is to be of good quality... It means allowing guests to enjoy their day and want to spend money, not being bombarded with upsells, rotting theming and dodgy operations...

As opposed to Tussaud's adding Imperial Leather (which isn't even a character brand!) to the Flume and the Bubbleworks, again its not Merlin, getting sponsorship was something in place way before Merlin bough out Tussaud's. Also most UK parks are now using characters to draw people in (Thomas Tank, SpongeBob, Peppa Pig, Postman Pat, Angry Birds), that isn't going to change. Even Disney bases most new attractions on a film (Avatar, The Seven Dwarves, Little Mermaid etc) rather than original ideas (Pirates of the Caribbean, Space Mountain, Thunder Mountain, Matterhorn).

There-in lies the issue, it seems that Merlin think that repairing/repainting stuff in the off season isn't worth the effort because it doesn't bring in the guests... Such a mindset is what's hurting the parks more, as we saw when DIC were in charge...

We do seem to be seeing a difference this year with the re-paving work in Chessington and the work on the Smilers queue extension. Will have to wait until the weekend to see Thorpe as they don't have any weekend openings but hopefully they have put some TLC in too.

 

[_nemesis_]

I would accept that the rides in Lost City are not highly themed but the area is one of the best landscaped of any park in the UK and along with the area music creates a really immersive atmosphere.

Lost City's landscaping is awful, in fact, Lost City is awful. But the Colossus area was well thought out, brilliantly landscaped, and has a real atmosphere. But the rest of Lost City (flat rides) is crap, no area theming, only Vortex and Quantum are themed. The rest of it is just a dumping ground for flat rides.

 

[Benzin]

But the ideas and additions recently just seem to lack a real spark of true quality... And the obsessive nature of things needing an USP rather than just being a good addition is the big worry for me... Smiler and Swarm are both good examples of rides that seem to have had a lot of good ideas flowing around them, but for one reason or another just lack that idea that takes them to the level of Nemesis, Vampire or Oblivion when they opened...

Don't forget Vampire & Nemesis were both UK firsts and Oblivion and Air were world firsts, the USP thing is nothing new, the Tussaud's parks have always been chasing after world firsts.

There is still a massive gap in quality between then and now, and it's not JUST happening wit the coasters now, it appears that EVERY new thing must have something that sells it, rather than being a good attraction...

Also got to look at the overall quality of the attractions... Is Swarm as good as Nemesis when it originally opened for absolute atmosphere? What about Smiler and Oblivion?

Course bare in mind that the UK theme park industry had nothing major until Nemesis apart from a couple of wooden coasters at Blackpool, a few Schwarzkopfs, and a Vekoma Corkscrew... ANYTHING was gonna be a UK first when the likes of Vampire, Nemesis, Big One and Shockwave opened... And we know Oblivion and Air were born out of Tussauds/Wardley's great working relationship with B&M at the time as well, meaning that they put a lot more effort into it...

Thorpe with Angry Birds is currently showing a great inability to bring in a good quality product to support the park... The idea of re-opening the 4D Cinema and adding some Dodgems is a lovely idea and fits their wanting to attract the family market (ok, that's because financially, they're rubbish), but tagging Angry Birds on it shows what Merlin are like, it NEEDS to have something to entice people... No Merlin, what the park needs is to be of good quality... It means allowing guests to enjoy their day and want to spend money, not being bombarded with upsells, rotting theming and dodgy operations...

As opposed to Tussaud's adding Imperial Leather (which isn't even a character brand!) to the Flume and the Bubbleworks, again its not Merlin, getting sponsorship was something in place way before Merlin bough out Tussaud's. Also most UK parks are now using characters to draw people in (Thomas Tank, SpongeBob, Peppa Pig, Postman Pat, Angry Birds), that isn't going to change. Even Disney bases most new attractions on a film (Avatar, The Seven Dwarves, Little Mermaid etc) rather than original ideas (Pirates of the Caribbean, Space Mountain, Thunder Mountain, Matterhorn).

Are you saying that the Imperial Leather additions are positive? Because they are pure examples of how crap Tussauds became in the DIC days...

When an IP is done well (like the theming in Thomas Land, though the cramped design of the area is poor), it can be an excellent and solid addition to the park... Currently, Merlin (and Tussauds) haven't got a single good IP based attraction in their parks (CBeebies looks to buck that trend, but only because the BBC want a quality product, remember, only a few years back Shrek was meant to appear in that area, until Dreamworks pulled out)...

To compare the Merlin character brand additions to Disney is also silly... Whilst Disney have always had rides based off their films (and why not, it is after all Disneyland), look at the sheer quality of Snow White Mine Train compared to any Merlin based IP attraction... They even made an IP as crap as Cars into one of the best looking park areas in the world...

Of course, another important thing to consider with IPs is the lifespan, something that Merlin seem incapable of doing, getting brands that are at the real post-peak time of the lives, and don't have the same timeless classicness as say Thomas or half the things Disney add in...

As an aside, I hate the idea of Disney using Avatarland...

There-in lies the issue, it seems that Merlin think that repairing/repainting stuff in the off season isn't worth the effort because it doesn't bring in the guests... Such a mindset is what's hurting the parks more, as we saw when DIC were in charge...

We do seem to be seeing a difference this year with the re-paving work in Chessington and the work on the Smilers queue extension. Will have to wait until the weekend to see Thorpe as they don't have any weekend openings but hopefully they have put some TLC in too.

[/quote]

A queue extension on Smiler is a positive park improvement? Bet you Nemesis is still rotting away then... What about a fresh coat of paint for the rest of the park as well?

Market Square paving is good, and a start, but it needs MORE... It'll make the rest of the park even worse... And I think everyone is still waiting for Thorpe is repaint Colossus...


Thing is now, Merlin have owned the parks long enough that they could have easily removed some of the old Tussauds DIC mistakes... They haven't, instead they have seemingly continued along some of the paths originally tred forwards...

 

[jon81uk]

I think that yes, Swarm is as good as Nemesis on theming, there is a ton of themed vehicles, custom queueline TV video and audio and water effects timed to the ride. Shame the actual on-ride isn't as memorable! Equally Smiler & Oblivion both have custom queue line and station TVs and the audio adds to the experiance on both. Air just fells flat in comparison (tunnel!), as does Nemesis Inferno (tunnel maintanance!).

I didn't say the Imperial Leather additions are positive, I'm saying Tussaud's also made mistakes, the company hasn't really changed by Merlin taking it over. There are good IP based attractions in their parks, but they are supported by DreamWorks, Magascar at Chessington & Ice Age at Towers and of course the DreamWorks partnership is continuing with the new London attraction.

I also wasn't really comparing Disney and Merlin, just saying that originality is dead, most new attractions have a tie-in somewhere, also look at Universal and Harry Potter.
As I said before I don't expect the 4D film to be shown for more than a few years anyway and then they can get a new film and re-do the area anyway.

Also the queue extension isn't by itself a great improvement, but it is better than having temporary fences forever and shows a willingness to fix things. I don't feel Nemesis is going to rot, the station building was only repainted 3 or 4 years ago. Wait and see next weekend there may be more repainting happening but I know Chessington have painted more of Transylvania and Alton Towers are refurbishing Towers Street restaurant. At Thorpe I would expect the 4D cinema building to be completely repainted to remove all Pirate references.

 

[KingNemesis]

Looks like they have a page on the website for the Shark Hotel:

http://www.thorpepark.com/shark-hotel/

Short break packages start from just £39.99* per person based on 4 sharing and include two day Park tickets, selected evening entertainment, breakfast, free car parking and ‘first to ride*’ experience.

* Subject to availability

...flat screen TV entertainment packages including Angry Birds App and on-demand movie service featuring a chance to enjoy legendary shark-themed movies.

 

[CoasterCrazyChris]

I would accept that the rides in Lost City are not highly themed but the area is one of the best landscaped of any park in the UK and along with the area music creates a really immersive atmosphere.

Lost City's landscaping is awful, in fact, Lost City is awful. But the Colossus area was well thought out, brilliantly landscaped, and has a real atmosphere. But the rest of Lost City (flat rides) is crap, no area theming, only Vortex and Quantum are themed. The rest of it is just a dumping ground for flat rides.

I agree that it was lazy for them to just cluster a bunch of flat rides at one end of Lost City, but I still think they did a pretty good job of presenting them around 2001/2.

Bad landscaping? No theming? I don't think so. As soon as you exit the dome from the lower level you are surrounded by nice foliage, crumbling walls and gold statues with dramatic music playing. All the rides have a co-ordinated blue and gold colour scheme and signage. Quantum and Zodiac do look a bit crap thee days but only because they have had their theming stripped and not replaced. They both actually had good theming when they were new.

To be honest, I challenge you to find a flat ride in the UK that is better presented than those in Lost City....

 

[Enter Valhalla]

I do like Lost City's theme and landscaping, but the more recent additions (Samurai and Rush) were clearly bodge jobs if you ask me. I also don't like the way that Thorpe Park choose to frequently ignore the Lost City theme by playing chart music on full blast around the Lost City area. It seems to be the one section of the park (together with Neptunes Beach) where they thing that theming can be forgotten about, depsite it actualy having the basis of a very good theme.

 

[Ian]

Yes, I completely agree with Chris. For me, the area around Colossus especially is simply stunning. Probably up their, if not higher than, Air in terms of landscaping. It looks beautiful. It's just a shame that the ride hasn't had the same care taken of it (A repaint really wouldn't go amiss), and the same with some bits of theming.

The area around Rush, Zodiac, and Quantum may be pretty flat, but it's still very nicely presented with all the trees and greenery. I particularly like how well Rush integrates for example, with the foliage coming in around the ride area. It's just a generally pleasant area to be in if you ask me

The theming isn't amazing, and I don't think Disney or Europa need worry, but the area is far from devoid of any theming. There are some very nice little touches. It's just all a bit unloved sadly If they could tidy it up they could very easily go back and add an overarching story and theme to the area and its attractions with very little difficulty.

 

[CoasterCrazyChris]

The area around Rush, Zodiac, and Quantum may be pretty flat, but it's still very nicely presented with all the trees and greenery. I particularly like how well Rush integrates for example, with the foliage coming in around the ride area. It's just a generally pleasant area to be in if you ask me

I actually can't think how they could have better presented what is essentially a bunch of fairground rides.

The fact they play chart music there just irritates me, it craps all over the atmosphere in the area.

 

[_nemesis_]

To be honest, I challenge you to find a flat ride in the UK that is better presented than those in Lost City....

I shall take on that challange. See if you can find any phrases from your defence in mine. Buccaneer and Rammy, at CWOA are what I think of as better. Rameses used to have snakes wrapping around the side supports. The walls of its pit has stone blocks piled on top which are now surrounded by vines. Although this means that you can see the blocks, it does add to the foliage.

Buccaneer, has a small lake at the bottom of its pit, and just like Rammy, the walls of the pit have stone blocks. For a lot of the queue, stones and rocks are used as fencing, mostly left over from when the hole was blasted.

Now whilst this rides don't look as good as they did, probably because they had their 'theming stripped back and not replaced'. One last thing that ruins Lost City's atmosphere is the massive notice Ruch makes, and Zodiac looks like it has just come out of a local fare. Challenge complete!

 

[Ian]

I would simply argue that good theming does not just make a ride well presented. None of the Lost City flats really rely massively on theming, but that doesn't stop them still looking good.

In fact, I'd perhaps go so far to say that Rush, Vortex, and Zodiac probably have less theming between them than Storm Surge. Now which is the better presented of those?

Theming is brilliant stuff, and it can really add to a ride and allow it to take you to another world. However, it is not essential to make a ride look good and be presented well if you ask me. Similarly, adding theming does not make a poorly presented ride look good.

 

[CoasterCrazyChris]

To be honest, I challenge you to find a flat ride in the UK that is better presented than those in Lost City....

I shall take on that challange. See if you can find any phrases from your defence in mine. Buccaneer and Rammy, at CWOA are what I think of as better. Rameses used to have snakes wrapping around the side supports. The walls of its pit has stone blocks piled on top which are now surrounded by vines. Although this means that you can see the blocks, it does add to the foliage.

Buccaneer, has a small lake at the bottom of its pit, and just like Rammy, the walls of the pit have stone blocks. For a lot of the queue, stones and rocks are used as fencing, mostly left over from when the hole was blasted.

Now whilst this rides don't look as good as they did, probably because they had their 'theming stripped back and not replaced'. One last thing that ruins Lost City's atmosphere is the massive notice Ruch makes, and Zodiac looks like it has just come out of a local fare. Challenge complete!

I did think about Rameses when typing my post, but it never really struck me as anything special. It probably looked good when it was new, but now it's pretty bare with just some patterned designs on it. I also thought about Ripsaw, but it's not landscaped and looks crap these days as well.

But I think you are right about Black Buccaneer. The ship is a bit tacky but it looks great surrounded by a lake in its own pit with the rustic buildings etc. So in that respect, it's probably best in the UK.

It must be said though, swinging ships and top spins are by their nature far easier to theme and landscape than KMG Afterburners and screamin' swings. I don't think Thorpe could have done a lot more with those rides in that given space. Zodiac does look like a dangerous heap of junk these days, but the original looked great and it is still nicely shielded all around by trees and bushes.

 

[Enter Valhalla]

I don't really think that either of the CWOA flat rides look great now that they've had their theming stripped back and they've been allowed to fall into disrepair.

In terms of the best themed/ best looking flat ride in the UK, I'd actually say Ripsaw!

 

[electricBlll]

Until this generalisation of "theming" stops being taken so literally by both park management and enthusiasts, theme parks in the UK will go nowhere!

There's no such thing as theming really; the design process is far more complicated than the term suggests (when done properly!). No one company can create these designs and it involves many different types of art, architecture, scenic design, props, animations...

There's no point comparing an ambitious large-scale scenic designed flat ride project (Rameses Revenge for example, which included constructing half the Forbidden Kingdom area just to be its queue line) with a stylistically-decorated rollercoaster (Colossus - which has some scenic details but only to give the coaster a brand image). I'm not trying to be pedantic, it just helps to understand why some rides are more entertaining than others even when the "theming" has a very different function.

Apart from Tidal Wave, Thorpe Park have only ever used themes to give their rides identity and not to create theatrical environments like Chessington/Alton Towers (much better examples would be Disney, Universal, etc). There's nothing wrong with that - because Thorpe Park's whole aim is to entertain using thrills and VIBES rather than dramatic experiences. I think they should continue focusing on that because the park is physically too small and flat to pull off the latter. Just look at how the Swarm's patchy "devastated urban landscape" adds nothing to the ride experience.

Why people care about a dodgemes attraction being "well-themed" I don't know. Sure, it will be Angry Birds-"themed" in the same sense than a fancy dress party can be Angry Birds themed. But to create an impressive, theatrical environment about a tacky phone game would be a waste of time for all the art and design departments involved; when, lets' face it, the only reason people will ride the dodgems is to bash into each other.

Merlin could create brilliant ride experiences if they had the right approach. I often think they are too concerned about guest expectations that they dabble in "theme park pastiches" rather than letting loose to create the real thing.

 

[CoasterCrazyChris]

I'm not trying to sound pedantic, it's just helps to really understand why some rides are more theatrical/immersive than others even when the "theming" has a very different function. Apart from Tidal Wave, Thorpe Park have only ever used theme concepts to give their rides identity and not to create theatrical environments like Chessington/Alton Towers (much better examples would be Disney, Universal, etc). There's nothing wrong with that - because Thorpe Park's whole aim is to entertain using thrills and VIBES rather than dramatic experiences. I think they should focus on that because the park is physically too small and flat to pull off the latter (just look at the Swarm's "devastated urban landscape").

So....do you think Lost City is a good area or not?

 

[electricBlll]

Presently, not really! I haven't felt much of a positive vibe or seen people entertained by the Lost City enough in the last few years. It always feels stale and I would blame the invading rust, tarmac and crowding for that.

However, when it opened I remember it was totally fresh and mysterious. The ambiance created by the exotic plants and blueish colours everywhere gave the flat rides a nice edge. Colossus seemed far more dramatic and enigmatic before its lakeside area was filled in by grubby Saw Alive (removing the lovely isolation and peacefulness of its extended queue) and the safety meshes were installed everywhere.

But Lost City was never convincingly a "lost city". People say it's Aztec-themed, but it really isn't - the sun symbols just allude vaguely to ancient South America but that's it really. Far from immersing you in a forgotten civilisation, the point of the Lost City is just to have a quick blast on the boldly towering flat rides and mysteriously sprawling rollercoaster coaster. Y'know? :twirly: