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UK politics general discussion

So are all of these MPs having the Tory whip removed?

I was under the impression that this vote was being seen as confidence vote in the government? And any Tory who didn’t vote No was seen as betraying the government?
 
Matt N said:
So are all of these MPs having the Tory whip removed?

I was under the impression that this vote was being seen as confidence vote in the government? And any Tory who didn’t vote No was seen as betraying the government?
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I don't think even the Tories know whether or not this was a confidence vote in the government. Tonight's been so completely chaotic that it's been really hard to keep track of things.
 
It is disgusting what this country's government has begun. Since Brexit, the Tory party have allowed the nutters to take full control - the ERG, the hard liners - you name them.

Chaos and muppetry.

Wow.
 
Turns out that the chief whip and deputy chief whip haven't resigned, despite the news that they apparently had. I simply can't believe how ridiculous this whole charade has been.
 
Rumour has it that likes of Jacob Rees Mogg were literally manhandling tory MPs into the No lobby today in voting since the chief whip has done a runner.

If true massive disrespect to democracy. But tories are literally gasping for air right now they’re done for and they all know it.
 
Watching Newsnight tonight and it's really highlighting just how shafted the under 30's are at the moment.

It's my 40th birthday today and I really was a part of the last generation to grasp the rope ladder before the helicopter took off and left everyone else behind.

Whilst all this squabbling and incompetent governance is going on in Westminster, younger people have already had to live much of their lives under austerity. Their wages and pensions are lower than generations that came before them, their retirement age will be higher. They can't buy homes. Their health services are in crisis. They leave university many thousands in debt and they now face austerity round 2, a weaker pound, lack of freedoms to work and settle in other countries that we enjoyed and little hope for the future.

This has been coming for a long time. We need more than just a new government, we need a whole rethink about what sort of country we want to be. 12 years of failure, sped up significantly in a few months, accelerated at warp speed in just a few weeks.
 
Matt.GC said:
Watching Newsnight tonight and it's really highlighting just how shafted the under 30's are at the moment.

It's my 40th birthday today and I really was a part of the last generation to grasp the rope ladder before the helicopter took off and left everyone else behind.

Whilst all this squabbling and incompetent governance is going on in Westminster, younger people have already had to live much of their lives under austerity. Their wages and pensions are lower than generations that came before them, their retirement age will be higher. They can't buy homes. Their health services are in crisis. They leave university many thousands in debt and they now face austerity round 2, a weaker pound, lack of freedoms to work and settle in other countries that we enjoyed and little hope for the future.

This has been coming for a long time. We need more than just a new government, we need a whole rethink about what sort of country we want to be. 12 years of failure, sped up significantly in a few months, accelerated at warp speed in just a few weeks.
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Happy birthday Matt!
 
So to summarise what happened in terms of the fracking vote last night. The whips sent a message out yesterday morning stating the vote was a three line whip and would be treated as a confidence vote in the government.

We get to the debate, cue lots of angry Tory MPs kicking off that they're being forced to vote against a manifesto commitment (to not resume fracking unless it was scientifically proven as safe). Graham Stuart, Energy and Industrial Strategy Minister winding up the debate on the vote then says at the despatch box that the vote isn't a confidence matter. A Tory MP then asks him to confirm whether those who vote for the motion (as in for Labour to win) would be kicked out of the party. He's unable to answer.

We get to the vote itself, there's a big argument behind the scenes as no one now really know whether this is or isn't a confidence vote in the government anymore. People are allegedly jostled into the no lobby, the chief whip and deputy chief whip are annoyed they've been undermined and it's turned into a shambles. They kick off and apparently quit.

Labour lose the vote as expected, but many Tories are annoyed at what a shambles the whole thing was and the opposition parties all kick off at what the witnessed in the lobbies. The press start to get reactions from MPs both anonymously and on the record.

Some senior ministers are then interviewed later on. They don't really know whether it was a confidence vote or not, they also don't know whether they have a chief whip or a deputy chief whip anymore. Jacob Rees Mogg says that it was down to a juniour member of staff incorrectly advising ministers that it was no longer a confidence vote. Even seasoned Westminster journalists are looking pretty shellshocked at what the hell is going on at this point.

A few hours later, no10 confirmed that the whips are still in post and everyone is confused...
Matt N said:
So are all of these MPs having the Tory whip removed?

I was under the impression that this vote was being seen as confidence vote in the government? And any Tory who didn’t vote No was seen as betraying the government?
Click to expand...
So it seems everyone initially thought that they wouldn't, mainly due to the confusion about whether it was or wasn't being treated as a confidence vote in the government.

However, fast forward ot about 1:30am today (seriously!). A text was sent out by no10 to Westminster journalists:


From: https://twitter.com/KateEMcCann/status/1582894679212687360


So basically it IS being treated as a confidence vote in the government, and therefore it would appear that MPs who did not vote will now potentially lose the whip. Now this doesn't mean all 36 will, as it's probably around 15-20 people who actively did not participate in the vote. The remainder will be paired - that is, they are matched with someone who was voting for the motion as they had a valid reason for not being able to vote. Being paired means the opposing votes cancel each other out, so would make no difference to the result.

It sounds like confirming that this was a confidence vote and therefore sticking by what the whips initially set it up as was a way of them agreeing to remain in post. If Truss lost both the chief whip and deputy chief whip along with Suella Braverman earlier in the day, then it would probably have been curtains for her first thing this morning. Ultimately I don't think it makes a difference, as it's simply delaying the inevitable now. The scenes reported yesterday are beyond unprecedented, and have only served to further infuriate both MPs and the public alike.

The whole thing has been a bit of a stroke of genius from Labour. They absolutely would not win an outright motion of no confidence against the government. But by tabling the fracking motion, it allowed them to make the point that the Tories were reversing yet another manifesto commitment and to further open up divisions in the Conservative party. I don't think even in their wildest expectations did they believe it would descend into the craziness seen today though.

I was thinking Truss had bought a few weeks after Tuesday and the positive reception she was reported to have received at the meetings she had with MPs. I'd now be surprised if she lasted today, maybe the week at a push.

Maybe the lettuce will win after all...
 
I suspect Liz Truss was happy to get through PMQs without too much damage. Little did she know the danger lay much later in the evening.

The whole thing is a shambles.

What the papers are suggesting today is Braverman had a 90 minute shouting match with Truss over immigration. Braverman wanted to continue to curtail it while Truss wanted to allow more to fill the much needed vacancies in the country. This puts Truss on a collision course with the right of the party that helped to get her into the position.

Craig said:
So basically it IS being treated as a confidence vote in the government, and therefore it would appear that MPs who did not vote will now potentially lose the whip ... probably around 15-20 people who actively did not participate in the vote
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Is it wise to do that? Doesn't that increase the likelihood of further votes against the government, no confidence motions and a general election?
 
Alsty said:
Is it wise to do that? Doesn't that increase the likelihood of further votes against the government, no confidence motions and a general election?
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I mean it probably wasn't wise to make a vote on fracking a confidence issue, especially when you're essentially telling people to vote against something that's in your manifesto but here we are 😂

I think the key word in the text from Downing Street this morning is that the disciplinary action will be "proportionate". So I'd guess there's a possibility they won't lose the whip and they'll use the confusion about it as a mitigating factor to get out of it causing too much of a kick off. But with this government, who knows?

It's been a long night shift for me at work, let's see if she lasts my nap. I'll be counting minister's resignations rather than sheep I think 😅
 
British politics is quite unbelievable at the moment. It is more like a gripping TV drama with twists and turns around every corner than a functioning government of a G7 nation. If it wasn't in our country, impacting on all of our lives, it would be a real good laugh.

I think Charles Walker summed it all up in that BBC interview actually, it is all one big embarrassing mess.
 
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