2019 General Election Poll and Discussion

Discussion in 'Corner Coffee' started by Rob, 31st Oct 2019.

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Which party will you vote for at the 2019 General Election?

  1. Brexit Party

    3 vote(s)
    3.5%
  2. Conservatives

    14 vote(s)
    16.3%
  3. Green Party

    3 vote(s)
    3.5%
  4. Labour

    41 vote(s)
    47.7%
  5. Liberal Democrats

    14 vote(s)
    16.3%
  6. SNP

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. UKIP

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Not Voting/Can't Vote

    5 vote(s)
    5.8%
  10. Not Yet Decided

    6 vote(s)
    7.0%
  1. Dave

    Dave TS Founding Member

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    what’s wrong with voting tactically?

    Working in the NHS I can’t bare the thought of 5 years with the Tories in power, now I’m lucky enough that the party I want to vote for is the biggest challenger (well currently it hold the seat but we are a marginal), but if I lived in a constituency where my preference had no chance but another party did then I think it’s fair to hold your nose and vote that way if you want to.
     
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  2. RoyJess

    RoyJess TowersStreet Member

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    I think you answered my original post, a single vote will still not change the overall outcome if you voted for another party. 2 votes would have broken evens and you would have needed another 3 votes for the outcome to change. Even then, you would still need a change in majority in seats to change the party o_O

    I fully agree, I certainly don't want to see the Tories in power for another 5 years, I certainly would like to see a change in party, but I don't want to see Corbyn in power either even thou he would be my lesser of the two evils.

    At the end of the day, I have the strength and freedom to vote for the party that I want to see in power as oppose to feel tactically bound to vote for a party that I don't want to see in power just to keep the other main party out

    :)
     
  3. John C

    John C TowersStreet Member

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    I've sent off my postal vote and gone with the Lib Dems. Not a party I used to vote for, but at recent elections (such as local and EU) I've been going with them. I'm in an area with a large Conservative majority, so in reality my vote isn't going to make any difference. But I do not like what Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn are offering. I'm not overly keen on the Lib Dems either, but at the moment they are nearest to my views so I had to go with them. Not long to go now. Election night should be very interesting. Can't wait to see how it goes.
     
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  4. Rick

    Rick TowersStreet Member

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    *My phone won't let me insert weak spoiler banter*

    Tactical voting is not about single votes or voters. It's about a portion of the electorate in a constituency looking at what is in front of them and concluding that one of the two front runners would be catastrophic, the other would be OK and accepting that the rest, no matter how much you like their policies will not triumph in that seat.

    I agree that's true at the moment, but I don't think that will be the case going forward. There's evidence that it happens in not insignificant amounts so it's not about single votes in isolation, it's about lots of single votes changing the state of play. There are a number of constituencies where it comes down to single figures and cumulatively a not huge number of votes can change things.

    There is a great piece by Professor Stephen Fisher on the BBC website today - General election 2019: What difference could tactical voting make?

    Many of the the UK's constituencies are two horse races, granted there are some three way marginals and a few with other funky arithmetic, but the notion that it's everything to play for is bananas.

    If you want to use a horse racing analogy, it's undeniable that there are usually two favourites in the bulk of constituencies. You can choose one you don't potentially don't like or the other which might be 'the best of the two', 'the least worst option' or the party that potentially helps you get what you want in terms of a single issue.

    Or, you can bet on the one legged horse at 1000/1 to show your support - perfectly legitimate, but some might say unwise if your least favourite party scrapes home and your second or third preference just misses out.

    It's a fault of our electoral system that is seemingly here to stay.
     
    Last edited: 3rd Dec 2019
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  5. Matt N

    Matt N TowersStreet Member

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    We had a hustings at our school today with the local Labour Party and Green Party candidates involved, and I must say it was very interesting!

    Both candidates were very good, with some very interesting things said!

    Both said that their manifestos had been fully costed and explained how they were going to pay for the pledges; Labour are taxing higher earners and increasing corporation tax with a little bit of borrowing for the 1950s women's pensions pledge, whereas the Green Party are borrowing, but they insist that it needs to be done in order to solve the climate crisis now. Interestingly, they both said that the current government has borrowed quite a bit of money in the past, implying that it wouldn't necessarily "bankrupt the country" as some have said.

    On the subject of tactical voting, both seemed to be in support of proportional representation being introduced in the future!
     
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  6. bluesonichd

    bluesonichd TowersStreet Member

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    [​IMG]
    Labour spending ... borrowing billions and billions. Bankrupting the country and burdening the next generation with debt for years and years. :rolleyes:
     
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  7. speedy

    speedy TowersStreet Member

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    Interesting, did any of the other parties attend?

    I think it's fair to say we need to be paying more tax to improve services in this country and I'm glad Labour are upfront about that.

    And the Greens have a good point with their borrowing. If we ruin the climate nobody is going to care that we have no national debt.
     
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  8. Brad97

    Brad97 TowersStreet Member

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    Project Fear strikes again!
     
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  9. Alsty

    Alsty TowersStreet Member

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    I'd rather pay a little bit more tax and have decent public services. I don't know what the obsession is with cutting every public service to the bone...
     
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  10. Dave

    Dave TS Founding Member

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    The trouble with graphics like this is it’s not representative of the actual balance of payments. The Tories are planning tax cuts for rich folk. Collecting £1 billion of tax less than before has the same impact on national debt as spending £1 billion more on national priorities.

    Other countries manage spending far higher than labour are suggesting and don’t bankrupt themselves.

    Then we come to Brexit which is far more likely to bankrupt the country than any new hospital programme will ever do. Though I get the religion of brexit lacks logic or any real factual basis, just a great big belief in Donald Trumps honesty it seems.
     
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  11. Alsty

    Alsty TowersStreet Member

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    It's also quite a bizarre viewpoint to consider public spending as something evil, as something to be avoided at all costs. If you spend money on the right things then you can actually get more back than what you spend. Perhaps it's paradoxical to some people but you can be worse off by not spending anything.

    And on a slightly different note, the Conservatives are not a good choice for those who believe in education:
     
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  12. GaryH

    GaryH TowersStreet Member

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    Well, to be fair neither are labour given it was them who introduced tuition fees in the first place! Hardly encourages people to go get a further education!
     
  13. Rick

    Rick TowersStreet Member

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    "Applications have dipped only three times - on each occasion when fees were introduced or increased - but they have always recovered.

    And one of the main arguments in favour of fees has been that such wide access is unsustainable unless students make a contribution to the cost.

    In the early 1980s only about one in six young people could expect to go to university - now, for girls at least, it's over half."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-40511184

    Assumption on my part you mean Higher, not Further Education. It was the coalition that dismissed the EMA for FE.

    When introduced by Labour tuition fees were £1000, upped to £3000 in 2004 and then the cap was famously tripled to £9000 by the aforementioned coalition in 2010.

    Just popping some facts on those rather vague bones.
     
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  14. speedy

    speedy TowersStreet Member

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    There's also the fact that this Labour government isn't made up of the same people in previous governments, and Labour want to scrap tuition fees and offer paid time off for studying. But yes please continue attacking Labour, it gives me the impression that there aren't any good Conservative policies worth sharing.

    University remains free in Scotland. It's really not a far-left, dreamt up policy.
     
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  15. Plastic Person

    Plastic Person TowersStreet Member

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    I don't think @Rick is attacking Labour as much as statistically disproving that @GaryH's assertion that nobody wants to study under paid tuition?

    Edit: Ahhh, I see wot I got mixed up ere.
     
    Last edited: 4th Dec 2019
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  16. speedy

    speedy TowersStreet Member

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    Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing I was trying to add to the point.

    I don't think people want to get into debt for the sake of uni, but it's essential for many careers. For those without a degree, the options are far more limited than they were before. Personally I see university as an investment in the people of the future. I'll be paying far more tax as an engineer than I would have had I went into a job after school.
     
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  17. Matt N

    Matt N TowersStreet Member

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    No; Labour and Green were the only parties that attended, although besides the Conservatives and two independent candidates, they are the only other parties standing in the Forest of Dean. The Liberal Democrats have pulled out of our constituency due to a Remain pact with the Green Party, and the Brexit Party have pulled out of our constituency due to them agreeing not to stand in Conservative seats.

    Currently, our seat is a pretty safe Conservative seat; Mark Harper has won in our constituency since 2005, and he won with around 54% of the vote in 2017, so while we're not quite a safe enough Conservative seat for tactical voting sites to not recommend any opposing party, we're certainly not a marginal seat! Anything could happen, though; our seat has also been a Labour seat in the past!
     
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  18. IanSR

    IanSR TowersStreet Member

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    Just because someone sits on a stall @Matt N in front of you and proclaims all their manifesto commitments are costed (through borrowing) does not make them honest or trustworthy.

    For instance Labour have this hidden "financial transactions tax" in their maifesto that will affect people on pensions most since most pensions are invested in the financial services industry, this is deep in their manifesto that will result in pensioners who have a pension of more than £20k paying an extra £1000 a year in tax, now you could easily argue that the transaction tax is payable by the pension fund manager and this is correct, however if anybody considers for one second that the pension fund manager won't pass on that tax to you in charges they either don't understand how the financial services industry works, or are delusional.

    That's just one example of "honest" Labour.

    As for the greens, don't get me started on them, if their driving force was honestly for a cleaner planet they'd be campaigning for our energy needs to be met by nuclear power which is 91% efficient but no they want us to spend billions of £££ that we don't have on an inherently inefficient wind and solar power production that is not only less than one third of the efficiency of nuclear but more damaging to the local Eco system (my friend works on a wind farm and his first job each morning is to go round and pick up all the birds killed by the turbines), or other "green" energy such as electric cars that have aweful efficiency and have a very dirty manufacturing process compared to their ICE counterparts. Oh and they wouldn't keep banging on about eliminating carbon dioxide emissions because every first grader knows we need that otherwise all the trees, grass and other vegetation die, which in turn means we die because that's how we get our oxygen.

    So you'll excuse me that I'd rather cut off my own arm with a razor blade than consider voting for either of these delusional liars :)

    Of course, this is not to say any of the other parties are any more honest, in fact your reaction to them is a fine example of why 16 years olds cannot ever be allowed to vote, no life experience is the saying I think, my son is nearing 16 and I can categorically state without any hesitation he is neither experienced or mature enough to vote in an election, and neither are any of his classmates either.
     
    Last edited: 5th Dec 2019
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  19. RoyJess

    RoyJess TowersStreet Member

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    Wind turbines are not eco friendly as they are made out to be. They are more polluting than cars because of the substation make use of Sulphur hexafluoride, or SF6 which is leaking into our atmosphere.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49567197
     
  20. speedy

    speedy TowersStreet Member

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    "
    Sitting in the North Sea some 43km from the Suffolk coast, Scottish Power Renewables has installed one of world's biggest wind farms where the turbines will be free of SF6 gas.

    East Anglia One will see 102 of these towering generators erected, with the capacity to produce up to 714MW (megawatts) of power by 2020, enough to supply half a million homes."

    Not all wind turbines :)

    I think the Greens are misguided. Not sure where the comments on ICE cars are coming from as I'm pretty sure Greens want to get people out of cars and on to buses, build more trams and better trains

    Nowhere in Matt's post did he say he trusted them 100%, just that they said their manifestos are fully costed. You've said your son is an example of why 16 year olds shouldn't be allowed to vote. This is a ridiculous argument as by that logic, adults shouldn't be allowed to vote either. Just look at how many people didn't know how tax bands worked when Labour said they would raise income taxes.

    Don't suggest that the Conservatives manifesto is any better either. We don't know how much Brexit is going to cost for a start.
     

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