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2023: General Discussion

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What other laws are they breaking exactly?
None sadly.
You can't just make the law up to get people off your land.
They weren't even asked to leave by the property owners, paid security or business staff or managers.
Merlin are at fault for having very easy access, and very poor security.
 
The fact people could walk around the park at night with torches and seemingly not taking any care to be undetected yet they didn't get picked up by security makes you wonder if anybody was actually monitoring the cameras. Reflects more on security than the perpetrators IMO.
 
I imagine like most places in the middle of the night (especially closed season) towers probably have one or two security sat in a office watching Netflix and not really paying much attention to cameras.

Also there are 100s of cameras across the resort. I bet on their screens if they are looking at them it will only show key entrances and certainly not ride cameras.
 
rob666 said:
What other laws are they breaking exactly?
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Health and safety laws for a start. I'm not 100% sure any laws have been broken here but there could well have been.
Alsty said:
The fact people could walk around the park at night with torches and seemingly not taking any care to be undetected yet they didn't get picked up by security makes you wonder if anybody was actually monitoring the cameras. Reflects more on security than the perpetrators IMO.
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Yeah I've always thought of security at Alton Towers as very tight, perhaps it's not as tight as we thought it was. I imagine the security team at Towers will want to make sure this never happens again.
 
Yeahhh, if they are identified it's not just trespass, they'd actually potentially be determined to be in contempt of court. As @JAperson pointed out the 2018 High Court injunction does apply to anyone in future who trespasses on the site, it's incredibly wide ranging. They'd be identified as the "sixth defendants" in the injunction:
(6) PERSONS UNKNOWN ENTERING THE CLAIMANTS' PREMISES LISTED IN SCHEDULE 1 TO THIS ORDER WITHOUT PERMISSION
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The order states:
IF YOU, ALISTAIR LAW, RIKKE BREWER, SCOTT MACKAY OR ANY PERSON DESCRIBED ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS ORDER NEXT TO THE NUMBERS (4), (5) OR (6) DO NOT COMPLY WITH THIS ORDER YOU MAY BE HELD IN CONTEMPT OF COURT AND IMPRISONED OR FINED, OR YOUR ASSETS MAY BE SEIZED
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Many believe the orders posted on the entrances to Merlin attractions are to prevent Ally Law and co from trespassing, but they were served the order personally. The notice is actually to serve the order on potential "sixth defendants" (i.e. people who trespass in future):
2. The Sixth Defendants must not enter the premises listed in Schedule 1 and located in England or Wales at any time and for any purpose without the express written permission of the Claimant referred to in the 'Control' column of the Schedule. 3. This Order shall be served by 17 August 2018 as follows:

d. on the Sixth Defendants by:
i. affixing at each of the premises in England and Wales listed in Schedule 1 a notice that an injunction has been granted preventing certain individuals from entering the premises, accompanied by a transparent envelope containing copies of this Order; and
ii. the prominent display on the website http://www.merlinentertainments.biz/ (or on each attractions' website) of a notice stating that an injunction has been granted preventing certain individuals from entering the premises, with a link to a page where a copy of this Order may be viewed.
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Whether it's enforceable or not (I'm not sure if said copies in a transparent envelope are still there) is probably yet to be tested. But I'd be willing to put money on Merlin trying everything to ensure any identified would be put through the courts and therefore incurring hefty costs regardless.

As for Towers security, there's PIR detectors all over the shop that should trigger staff to look at cameras. Why they haven't I've no clue - there's a reason why these events are so few and far between though. Generally they're pretty on it.
 
JAperson said:
Health and safety laws for a start. I'm not 100% sure any laws have been broken here but there could well have been.
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That's not how health and safety legislation works at all.

If no damage is caused there are no laws broken here.
The reality, if caught, is you'd probably be arrested for burglary or similar while the matter was investigated and spend the night in the cells. Then released with no further action taken.
 
Craig said:
Yeahhh, if they are identified it's not just trespass, they'd actually potentially be determined to be in contempt of court. As @JAperson pointed out the 2018 High Court injunction does apply to anyone in future who trespasses on the site, it's incredibly wide ranging. They'd be identified as the "sixth defendants" in the injunction:
The order states:
Many believe the orders posted on the entrances to Merlin attractions are to prevent Ally Law and co from trespassing, but they were served the order personally. The notice is actually to serve the order on potential "sixth defendants" (i.e. people who trespass in future):
Whether it's enforceable or not (I'm not sure if said copies in a transparent envelope are still there) is probably yet to be tested. But I'd be willing to put money on Merlin trying everything to ensure any identified would be put through the courts and therefore incurring hefty costs regardless.
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I did think there was a clause that stated that other trespassers could be in breach of a court order, as the order protects the site, due to recurring issue's. It's clearly marked on towers website, and surely they couldn't show court orders if they were just for individuals?
pluk said:
That's not how health and safety legislation works at all.

If no damage is caused there are no laws broken here.
The reality, if caught, is you'd probably be arrested for burglary or similar while the matter was investigated and spend the night in the cells. Then released with no further action taken.
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Well perhaps that should be changed then. You shouldn't be arrested for burglary if it's unlikely you've committed one. There should clearly be an offense for entering land and committing dangerous acts.
 
Isn't there some days when there's no security I've heard? Maybe they knew the place would be deserted. This has been done before around christmas time with ease so maybe the reason they weren't spotted is because there wasn't actually any security there
 
Ethan said:
Isn't there some days when there's no security I've heard? Maybe they knew the place would be deserted. This has been done before around christmas time with ease so maybe the reason they weren't spotted is because there wasn't actually any security there
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Certain nefarious activities are definitely easier on Bank Holidays & other national holidays. I'm talking in general, not particularly about Towers, but it probably applies to some extent.
 
Craig said:
Yeahhh, if they are identified it's not just trespass, they'd actually potentially be determined to be in contempt of court. As @JAperson pointed out the 2018 High Court injunction does apply to anyone in future who trespasses on the site, it's incredibly wide ranging. They'd be identified as the "sixth defendants" in the injunction:

The order states:

Many believe the orders posted on the entrances to Merlin attractions are to prevent Ally Law and co from trespassing, but they were served the order personally. The notice is actually to serve the order on potential "sixth defendants" (i.e. people who trespass in future):

Whether it's enforceable or not (I'm not sure if said copies in a transparent envelope are still there) is probably yet to be tested. But I'd be willing to put money on Merlin trying everything to ensure any identified would be put through the courts and therefore incurring hefty costs regardless.

As for Towers security, there's PIR detectors all over the shop that should trigger staff to look at cameras. Why they haven't I've no clue - there's a reason why these events are so few and far between though. Generally they're pretty on it.
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The "sixth defendants" is the part of the injunction that is completely unenforceable under existing law, but remains in the injunction statement.
It is precisely because it is so wide ranging that it is unenforceable...a clear evidential link to Mr Law or one of the other names would have to be shown for a nameless person to be charged under the injunction.
You cannot serve an order against "persons unknown" unless you have clear evidence of actual loss...Merlin would struggle with this...and you have to prove that the "unknown person" was aware of the order...pretty much impossible unless you wrap the whole of the Towers (or Tower) boundary in injunction notices.

Hot topic legally with squatters etc...where costs can be easily proved through loss of rent etc.
 
Ethan said:
Isn't there some days when there's no security I've heard? Maybe they knew the place would be deserted. This has been done before around christmas time with ease so maybe the reason they weren't spotted is because there wasn't actually any security there
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There's no chance that a site like Towers would have zero security on any day - bank holidays, Christmas day, during recent lockdowns... never.

The effectiveness of that security, though, is another matter.
 
I've just been involved in a conversation with them in the comments. interestingly, went to post my last reply and the entire thread has been deleted by them or I'm somehow now blocked from seeing certain comments. Along with other comments where others that were questioning them.

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On a Forum about a theme Park, could we try to move onto something a little more focused on that instead of an individual being guilty or not and loads of boring things about Court?
 
I think everything that needs to be said has been said, so agreed I think we can probably move on from it now. If you'd like to discuss the ins and outs of the law, feel free to start a topic in Corner Coffee if you wish.
 
Trooper Looper said:
On a Forum about a theme Park, could we try to move onto something a little more focused on that instead of an individual being guilty or not and loads of boring things about Court?
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More relevant than discussions in other topics, and relevant to Theme Parks...

Again, the "persons unknown" matter is unenforceable under law, and these people are well aware of that.
It is only enforceable if they (Merlin) can prove loss and prove that you are a member of a group with other named individuals in the injunction...this group of individuals are not...and cannot be convicted under the injunction.
There has already been a number of cases related to this point
Edit...cross post whip me Craig.
 
Anyway, saw a post on Twitter earlier saying the 18th March is only 10 weeks away to this day, so only 70 days until the 2023 season begins! With how time is flying, and how much of closed season we've already had (2 months and a day) it'll soon be here!
 
Hi does anyone no when you can add friends and family on to your booking for the theme park? I can book for myself with dates available but when trying to add friends and family it's still not got any dates added on yet
 
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