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Coronavirus
- Thread starter Jb85
- Start date
I'm 100% behind the vaccine being compulsory for health care workers. They are dealing with vulnerable people that might not be able to have the vaccine or have a medical condition that make the vaccine less effective. As mentioned, vaccines are already mandatory for certain healthcare professions. So making the covid vaccine mandatory will just be an extension. Health care workers have a duty of care to those they care for.
Remember, the whole world is at war with this virus. During WWII, conscription was introduced to fight the war and continued for many years after the war finished.
However I'm against mandatory vaccination for the rest of the population unless the uptake was low. I would like to think everyone will do their bit to bring this pandemic to an end.
Talking about everyone doing their bit. There is a local attraction that we are passholders for. (I won't name and shame, so the attraction will remain anonymous). You exit via the shop and the shop assistant there wears a sunflower lanyard to be exempt from wearing a face covering due to a hidden disability. On a visit during the half term, we spotted her wearing a face mask. We didn't ask or say anything as it is her business. We just wondered why she was suddenly wearing a face mask after all these weeks being exempt? Jess and I simply just assumed that she was told by the boss to wear one as it was half term week. On our last visit this week, she wasn't wearing a face mask. Upon her own admission, she explained why she was seen wearing a face mask during half term week. She had been to the dentist and was in the middle of having her teeth done, so in other words, she was missing a few teeth. So she explained that she wore the mask to hide her embarrassment. Jess and I didn't say anything, but very much felt that this lady couldn't be bothered to wear a mask which will help prevent the spread of the virus to others, but was willing to wear one to cover her own vanity. Obviously her own needs were more important than that of others. Completely selfish.
Remember, the whole world is at war with this virus. During WWII, conscription was introduced to fight the war and continued for many years after the war finished.
However I'm against mandatory vaccination for the rest of the population unless the uptake was low. I would like to think everyone will do their bit to bring this pandemic to an end.
Talking about everyone doing their bit. There is a local attraction that we are passholders for. (I won't name and shame, so the attraction will remain anonymous). You exit via the shop and the shop assistant there wears a sunflower lanyard to be exempt from wearing a face covering due to a hidden disability. On a visit during the half term, we spotted her wearing a face mask. We didn't ask or say anything as it is her business. We just wondered why she was suddenly wearing a face mask after all these weeks being exempt? Jess and I simply just assumed that she was told by the boss to wear one as it was half term week. On our last visit this week, she wasn't wearing a face mask. Upon her own admission, she explained why she was seen wearing a face mask during half term week. She had been to the dentist and was in the middle of having her teeth done, so in other words, she was missing a few teeth. So she explained that she wore the mask to hide her embarrassment. Jess and I didn't say anything, but very much felt that this lady couldn't be bothered to wear a mask which will help prevent the spread of the virus to others, but was willing to wear one to cover her own vanity. Obviously her own needs were more important than that of others. Completely selfish.
SirDossa
TS Member
Oh I agree with that motto more than most sir..and I wouldn’t consider myself to be a conspiracy theorist at all but was merely making a point that lots of things people said or thought last year were dismissed as being crazy and unimaginable yet they don’t appear to be that anymore.
Oh, and Klaus Schwab’s ( EC of the World Economic Forum ) new book is genuinely called “Covid 19:The Great Reset”. You couldn’t write it eh
Islander
TS Member
Apparently someone could.Oh, and Klaus Schwab’s ( EC of the World Economic Forum ) new book is genuinely called “Covid 19:The Great Reset”. You couldn’t write it eh
Craig
TS Administrator
Yes, although that risk is far lower than that of a care home resident who is frail and vulnerable who is being looked after by a care home worker in close contact. In a supermarket your contact with others is extremely brief in comparison and at nowhere near as close proximity. I'm assuming that's the case everywhere, last time I wandered into Morrisons I wasn't showered, dressed and fed by the checkout operator. Might be different in those posh places like Waitrose though I guess...
I mean you could smash a window and climb into a care home and give Edna her evening supper without having a vaccine if you wanted, but the fact is that's illegal as much as driving without a licence is. So not sure what you're getting at with that one?
Never saw the sheep in the local field with an iPhone and a QR code, but anyway... I think the point I and others are making is where a vaccine requirement is legal and proportionate to the risk, then they're fine. They're certainly not required just to enter a supermarket, and I wouldn't be in agreement for that being a requirement.
Mandatory vaccines, make me think it’s a movie!
The government henchmen kicking down your door with a big needle in hand!!
Just remember we are not sheep! But if you need to go out to a pub this weekend (crazy right) then you can’t stand up from your table and sing or dance, that’s illegal. Baaaaaaa
But if you are at the g7 Cornwall meetings you can’t stand up without wearing your mask but sitting in the chair directly behind allows you to remove it!
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The government henchmen kicking down your door with a big needle in hand!!
Just remember we are not sheep! But if you need to go out to a pub this weekend (crazy right) then you can’t stand up from your table and sing or dance, that’s illegal. Baaaaaaa
But if you are at the g7 Cornwall meetings you can’t stand up without wearing your mask but sitting in the chair directly behind allows you to remove it!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So who will make the judgement of risk? And would you comply even if you disagreed
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Craig
TS Administrator
Like every single law created in this country, it would go through due process in parliament. I think people forget that the party in power has a very, very large contingent within it who are against any form of Coronavirus regulation in the long term. I don't see anything that would result in any sort of scenario where you'd need a "covid passport" to enter a pub or a supermarket at present. Indeed a national requirement for a pub covid passport which was mooted for a while was shot down due to many within the Tory party being against it.
Forced was the wrong word perhaps and should have been compulsory instead. It’s starting to happen. Care home staff must now have the jab or find another job. Talk of front line NHS staff being compulsory to have it. Talk of only people who have had the vaccine being allowed to travel.
So yes while it’s not yet compulsory for children to have it, and little mention of that happening…. Yet…. It may in the future who knows.
The heart swelling issue in young people has been in the media lot , for example
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...le-who-received-pfizer-covid-shot-2021-04-25/
Anyway point I was trying to make was that I don’t think we know enough about the vaccine yet to roll it out to all ages of children.
And yes I do acknowledge this May or May not happen!
So yes while it’s not yet compulsory for children to have it, and little mention of that happening…. Yet…. It may in the future who knows.
The heart swelling issue in young people has been in the media lot , for example
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...le-who-received-pfizer-covid-shot-2021-04-25/
Anyway point I was trying to make was that I don’t think we know enough about the vaccine yet to roll it out to all ages of children.
And yes I do acknowledge this May or May not happen!
Force to have jabs? Yes it’s preferable but mandatory is a whole different legislation.
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Danza91
TS Member
There's already a precedent for this and has been for a while.
Islander
TS Member
But, when it comes to the Hep B jab, it is in a near-majority of cases mandatory, not merely preferable, and has been for a long time. Why is the Covid jab any different?
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Because it’s a vaccine that’s been produced in the last 18 months that hasn’t been fully verified(but certified to be safe)
I keep coming back to this, if you asked the general population” how may people die a day in the Uk” they would have no idea of the figure. You ask the same people if they think that 10 or 15 people die of covid is excessive then they would say yes.
Aprox 1000 people die a day!!!!!!!!
In an average year 10k to 20k die of flu
We need to get a grip.
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Let’s have the same conversation in 12 months
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Craig
TS Administrator
The vaccines we have, despite being produced quickly are some of the most heavily monitored we have ever had, as we've discussed before the speed is mainly due to the sheer amount of money that was pumped into the programmes.
I don't know why it is relevant that the general population need to know how many people die in the UK in your argument? The fact is we have incredibly high efficacy vaccinations which have been proven to prevent severe disease as a result of Covid-19 and have irrefutably shown that they have reduced deaths and hospitalisations from those who are fully vaccinated substantially. In January we had 1200 people per day die who had Covid-19 prior to a substantial double dose vaccine rollout, far more than the flu. And yes 15 people a day dying of Covid-19 is excessive, because a large chunk of those deaths could have been entirely preventable had they had been fully vaccinated.
As for your flu argument, yes 10-20k people die of the flu every year, but at the same time 128,000 people have died in the UK having had Covid-19 since last year. Even flu deaths are reduced thanks to a seasonal flu vaccine programme, but unfortunately the efficacy of that is nowhere near the level of the Covid vaccines.
We have a grip, but it's thanks to the hard work of scientists worldwide, not due to crazed conspiracy theories.
You must be a civil servant
Because the media shows the covid deaths as the forefront of their agenda.
My point was not many people know the actual deaths in the uk per day per week.
And those figures versus the covid figures may put things into perspective.
Do we lock down when there’s a flu epidemic? Not to my knowledge. Remember past headlines of patients in corridors, I do!
The nhs has never had the capacity, covid had just exacerbated the issue.
Please send me address to your fluffy word where everything if great.
Would you be happy to inject your child with the current vaccine?(if you do/don’t have one)
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Craig
TS Administrator
Nope, not a civil servant, just someone has a lot of respect for the work done on the vaccination programme. I'm not sure if you've read my previous posts in this topic, but I've been very critical of the media's clickbait obsession with Covid reporting, so I'm actually in partial agreement with you on that one. Recent reporting does feed on people's fears about things getting as bad as January/last year, but such is their obsession with getting people to click on stories. Clickbait moans aside, I stand by my point on 15 deaths a day being still too much when we have a vaccine that would substantially reduce those.
No, we don't lock down when there's a flu epidemic, but again that comes down to the flu vaccine, its efficacy and flu not causing as much of a problem as Covid was prior to vaccines. Consider this - in January we had 1200 deaths per day in January, with lockdown restrictions and with the beginnings of a vaccination programme. How quickly would Covid deaths have far exceeded that of the flu without those elements slowing transmission and infections - easily a matter of just days. I think we all know the NHS never had the capacity, it was stretched to breaking point in the past 12 months, but again where would it be if we left Covid to run rampant?
I'm actually also in full agreement that the media should do more to push the government and increase awareness on the lack of capacity in the NHS, and that it should do more to reduce those 1000 daily deaths you mentioned, some of which would be through longer waiting times to receive diagnoses. However, that doesn't mean we should completely ignore the risks Covid represents currently whilst the vaccination programme is still ongoing.
I don't have children, however I would be happy for them to have it once the science backed up that it was safe for them. The government have already said the data isn't there for it, and that's fair enough.
I'm certainly not in a fluffy world where everything is great, I have many criticisms of the behaviour of this government throughout the pandemic and the decisions they have made throughout. I'm not someone who thinks we should be permanently locked down either, I'm fully in the camp that we should have to learn to live with the virus. However, having seen the variants come out as time as gone on, I'm also a realist. I know there will be some elements of life where vaccination will give benefits, especially when it comes to international travel or large crowded events in the coming year or so. I'm all for a requirement for people to be vaccinated providing everyone has the ability to get one. And where people can't get vaccinated, then a sensible and low cost testing system should be implemented. And no, that shouldn't be the case for the care sector and it comes down to risk again. The risk of someone frail/vulnerable catching Covid before their caregiver's infection is picked up on a test is too great to have a solely testing option when something of far better effectiveness is available.
No, we don't lock down when there's a flu epidemic, but again that comes down to the flu vaccine, its efficacy and flu not causing as much of a problem as Covid was prior to vaccines. Consider this - in January we had 1200 deaths per day in January, with lockdown restrictions and with the beginnings of a vaccination programme. How quickly would Covid deaths have far exceeded that of the flu without those elements slowing transmission and infections - easily a matter of just days. I think we all know the NHS never had the capacity, it was stretched to breaking point in the past 12 months, but again where would it be if we left Covid to run rampant?
I'm actually also in full agreement that the media should do more to push the government and increase awareness on the lack of capacity in the NHS, and that it should do more to reduce those 1000 daily deaths you mentioned, some of which would be through longer waiting times to receive diagnoses. However, that doesn't mean we should completely ignore the risks Covid represents currently whilst the vaccination programme is still ongoing.
I don't have children, however I would be happy for them to have it once the science backed up that it was safe for them. The government have already said the data isn't there for it, and that's fair enough.
I'm certainly not in a fluffy world where everything is great, I have many criticisms of the behaviour of this government throughout the pandemic and the decisions they have made throughout. I'm not someone who thinks we should be permanently locked down either, I'm fully in the camp that we should have to learn to live with the virus. However, having seen the variants come out as time as gone on, I'm also a realist. I know there will be some elements of life where vaccination will give benefits, especially when it comes to international travel or large crowded events in the coming year or so. I'm all for a requirement for people to be vaccinated providing everyone has the ability to get one. And where people can't get vaccinated, then a sensible and low cost testing system should be implemented. And no, that shouldn't be the case for the care sector and it comes down to risk again. The risk of someone frail/vulnerable catching Covid before their caregiver's infection is picked up on a test is too great to have a solely testing option when something of far better effectiveness is available.
Dave
TS Founding Member
Those are not conspiracy theories, all of them have been serious areas of debate including the lab theory. The multi-lockdown theory was the most obvious to happen as pandemics are nearly always experienced in 3 to 4 waves of infections.
There is a difference between “conspiracy theories” and points of debate. 5G chips in vaccines is a conspiracy theory, a communist regime developing a virus is an unproven but legitimate concern (I personally am not convinced but it wouldn’t shock me if it turned out to be true).
Mandatory vaccines, make me think it’s a movie!
The government henchmen kicking down your door with a big needle in hand!!
Just remember we are not sheep! But if you need to go out to a pub this weekend (crazy right) then you can’t stand up from your table and sing or dance, that’s illegal. Baaaaaaa
But if you are at the g7 Cornwall meetings you can’t stand up without wearing your mask but sitting in the chair directly behind allows you to remove it!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Has anyone kicked down your door and given you the Hep B vaccine? No because you either don’t work in health care or you do and opted to have it.
Has anyone kicked down your door and forced you to have Hep A or yellow fever vaccine? No because you either haven’t travelled to a country that require those vaccines are you opted to have it.
Past vaccines are assessed based on the number of doses given. Normally to get to the key numbers (millions of doses) it takes years as we don’t tend to deploy vaccines very quickly, in most ways the current Coronavirus vaccines are more scrutinised that anything we have seen recently.
Short term side effects are caused by the bodies immune response and these tend to be short lived. Long term you would be more concerned about the additives rather than the active ingredient and none of the vaccines are really using novel additives so they have long term safety data for those.
As far as the heart issues potentially seen with Pfizer it’s certainly very possible but last I checked the numbers where too small to be of concern and few cases resulted in major harm (heart swelling isn’t unheard of in young men anyway and they normally have mild symptoms, unlike the clotting issue with AZ in the young).
It is possible that there could be a longer term complications but no drug gets that sort of data until after licensing as your talking 10-20+ years and the need for millions of doses to get that sort of confidence that no long term effects are seen.
Flu deaths are a tricky one as it rarely actually directly kills people (unlike Covid), it usually kills by causing pneumonia. In 2019 there where 1,223 deaths attributed to the flu alone (source ONS).
If you add pneumonia into the mix you get closer to the magic 30,000 deaths you mention (26,398 in 2019 to be precise). But the Flu isn’t the only cause of pneumonia (pretty much any respiratory virus can cause it if you are frail enough) so multiple virus’s are only achieving 26,398 deaths yet Covid is in the hundred thousand.
So unfortunately Covid isn’t comparable to the flu, also the flu vaccine we give to people every year has less testing than any of the Covid vaccines. We have no choice as the flu virus mutates too quickly.
Having lost three customers, who were also mates, to covid in care homes, I feel a need to respond.Mandatory vaccines, make me think it’s a movie!
The government henchmen kicking down your door with a big needle in hand!!
Just remember we are not sheep! But if you need to go out to a pub this weekend (crazy right) then you can’t stand up from your table and sing or dance, that’s illegal. Baaaaaaa
But if you are at the g7 Cornwall meetings you can’t stand up without wearing your mask but sitting in the chair directly behind allows you to remove it!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There are no mandatory vaccines.
It comes with the job for some, like drug testing for train drivers and signalmen.
There are no government henchmen kicking down doors with a big needle.
I am well aware I am not a sheep, but if I go to the pub, I will follow the rules.
G7 shouldn't have happened, but the rules were generally followed.
If vaccination had been compulsory for care staff early on, Arthur, Doris and Joan would still be alive.
Matt N
TS Member
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In promising news that suggests lasting immunity to COVID in most cases, the reinfection rate in Britain has been found to be extremely low; according to new PHE analysis, even the number of “possible” reinfections is thought to be 15,893, or just 0.4% of total cases, and the “probable” and “confirmed” reinfections are considerably lower again.
Here’s the GOV.UK article about this, if you want further info: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ossible-covid-19-reinfection-published-by-phe
Here’s the GOV.UK article about this, if you want further info: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ossible-covid-19-reinfection-published-by-phe