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London Entertainment Resort: All Discussion

A lot of people tend to knock stuff before they try it, and it's definitely the case with wooden coasters. A few years back I ask my Mum what she thought about them, and she was one of those people who did see them as "unsafe". But in 2010 we went to Blackpool and we both rode Nash. What did my Mum think of it? she loved it! And that's on a nearly 80 year old coaster. I think if most people had access to woodies in this country they would like them.
 
If it's marketed as a new coaster and as the world's highest wooden roller coaster (which it probably would be at Towers) I think they would pretty much be guaranteed a rise in guest numbers. If Morwenna could market a family ride as a thrill intense ride I'm sure as hell they could manage to market a wooden coaster in a different way.

Market research is just there to assist with the development of attractions. Although for some reason it's used as gospel and to finalise ideas. In the theme park industry risks are far easier to make than in other industries, it's silly companies like Merlin don't embrace that and try new things.

That's where Merlin fail really, they aren't a market leader and they don't have the balls to push the industry forwards.
 
The problem with market research is that people don't know what they want. They say that the idea of a wooden coaster doesn't appeal but if one got built, they'd still ride it.
 
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Market research isn't what makes the ride, it's the actual marketing campaign itself. The ride will surely stand its ground when the park is marketed on the whole. It's a new coaster and one of many, people are going to ride it when they see it looks new and well maintained.
 
I agree. People will generally try and ride everything at least once in a theme park. Ride experience makes rides popular draws in the long term. What Merlin are concerned with is that a wooden rollercoaster wouldn't bring in 300,000 extra people like a steelie will. They should look at it as something that would remain eternally popular like Nemesis and Air, that actually help to mop up queues and keep customer satisfaction regarding their overall day high. 'Huge queues' and 'only got on three rides' are what people most often complain about and are also what put people off coming back/coming at certain times of year. A 2,000 capacity woodie could in theory reduce queues times on all rides to below an hour, even in the summer.
 
Not only that, but neither should they need to bring in 300k because on the whole they're eminently cheaper than their steel counterparts and arguably, in terms of their stature not necessarily ride, age better!

Imagine a steel coaster from the early 20th century still standing (obviously wood was the main coaster)? Hardly. But their wooden counterparts still do. Steels have a way shorter span, because the technology moves on, because they can't really be upgraded, and because people end up wanting yet more height/inversions etc. The mind boggles at the idea of The Smiler or Infusion still going in 70 odd years time!

The same expectations are not placed upon woodies. It's a factor vastly overlooked by Merlin, amongst many other factors, I am quite sure Paramount London will not make that same mistake.
 
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The main problem with Woodies in this country is that are mostly in really difficult travelling, small parks apart from the 5 at Blackpool. I know it was mentioned on the thread earlier that Megafobia and Oakwood are miles are away from nearly everywhere, so a lot of people wouldn't get to try it. There's also the two woodies at the pleasure beach in Great Yarmouth, which is not as tricky to get to as Oakwood, but a lot still wouldn't have easy access. And the last one is at Gulliver's in Warrington, which a lot of people wouldn't have access to for stupid reasons.

The point I'm saying is, is that if people had easier access to Woodies, would they be as unpopular with the public as Merlin claim they are? Hell, I don't think you would need to have one at a major park to change the opinions. Build one at somewhere like Drayton, Paultons, or Mingoland would open up a whole new audience.
 
Great Yarmouth's coaster comes under the 'old' category though, so again there's that issue (I cannot think of the second woodie there either, unless you mean the Tubtwist?)...

Everything else is spot on though, but unfortunately the parks seem to worried about the short-term, rather than the long-term effects these days... Hence the explosion of IP based additions for kids because they are just 'easier' to market to the masses...
 
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Well @TedTheHuman the rumours are Mingerland will be doing exactly that!

I hope that's true. It is about the only thing that would get me to that park to visit lol!!

(where's the topic gone lol?)
 
Benzin said:
Great Yarmouth's coaster comes under the 'old' category though, so again there's that issue (I cannot think of the second woodie there either, unless you mean the Tubtwist?)...
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Yeah I was referring to the Tubtwist for the other Woodie. I realise now it's actually at Joyland and not Pleasure Beach :p

TheMan said:
Well @TedTheHuman the rumours are Mingerland will be doing exactly that!

I hope that's true. It is about the only thing that would get me to that park to visit lol!!

(where's the topic gone lol?)
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Ah yes, been hearing about this as well. Do hope it's true[/QUOTE]
 
I'd say the tubtwist was more a 'concretey' than a woodie! :p

Like I said, i just hope they go for quality that will last, attract attention and kick Merlin up the backside!
 
TheMan said:
Not only that, but neither should they need to bring in 300k because on the whole they're eminently cheaper than their steel counterparts and arguably, in terms of their stature not necessarily ride, age better!

Imagine a steel coaster from the early 20th century still standing (obviously wood was the main coaster)? Hardly. But their wooden counterparts still do. Steels have a way shorter span, because the technology moves on, because they can't really be upgraded, and because people end up wanting yet more height/inversions etc. The mind boggles at the idea of The Smiler or Infusion still going in 70 odd years time!

The same expectations are not placed upon woodies. It's a factor vastly overlooked by Merlin, amongst many other factors, I am quite sure Paramount London will not make that same mistake.
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I disagree that wooden coasters on the whole age better than steel coasters. Yes, a dull woodie might last a bit longer than a dull steel, perhaps due to a blend of nostalgia, historic value and/or maybe a sometimes unfair perception that the average woodie might not be intended to be (or even capable of being) a particularly exciting ride anyway. However, like any ride eventually the queues will die off, the ride will be deemed to be too big or expensive to keep for its low popularity, and it'll be Send In The Bulldozers! [/meetmemes] time, or time to call RMC if you're Six Flags. :p

Remember that steel coasters weren't established technology until the mid 20th century, whereas wooden coasters had been around for decades even by the time Big Dipper and Nash were built. The lack of early survivors is not confined to steel; most of the very earliest experiments into what both materials could do are no longer with us for our riding enjoyment/boredom and discomfort. When you're running a park you have to make the best possible use of your space and resources, and I'm sure early 20th century park operators viewed replacing a scenic railway with a cutting edge upstop-fitted coaster in much the same way that today's parks view building a shiny new B&M on land formerly occupied by '70s or '80s-built Arrow looper.

I doubt that many old wooden coasters that have survived have done so out of luck. A coaster that was designed and built to a high standard, has been maintained at least reasonably well and remains interesting or exciting to ride will stand the test of time, irrespective of the material from which it was constructed. That's how we still have Pleasure Beach's woodies drawing queues, and I have no doubt that there will be steel coasters that parks will do their damnedest to keep going as a labour of love in exactly the same way. At Liseberg in August I got the feeling that the delightful Lisebergbanan will be sticking around for many more years, and I'd hope that Nemesis has an equally bright future.

Equally we see that parks aren't just willing to keep just any woodie going. As mentioned earlier, Six Flags are letting RMC loose on more of their collection of woodies that appear neither really historic or exciting, and RCCA's Son of Beast at Kings Island only opened in 2000 and lasted less than a decade. I very much doubt that their hilariously dreadful European efforts Bandit and Coaster Express will still be around 50 years from now!

TedTheHuman said:
The main problem with Woodies in this country is that are mostly in really difficult travelling, small parks apart from the 5 at Blackpool. I know it was mentioned on the thread earlier that Megafobia and Oakwood are miles are away from nearly everywhere, so a lot of people wouldn't get to try it. There's also the two woodies at the pleasure beach in Great Yarmouth, which is not as tricky to get to as Oakwood, but a lot still wouldn't have easy access. And the last one is at Gulliver's in Warrington, which a lot of people wouldn't have access to for stupid reasons.

The point I'm saying is, is that if people had easier access to Woodies, would they be as unpopular with the public as Merlin claim they are? Hell, I don't think you would need to have one at a major park to change the opinions. Build one at somewhere like Drayton, Paultons, or Mingoland would open up a whole new audience.
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I agree that not having one within reach of civilisation isn't helping to change many minds, but I don't think the issue with UK woodies is due to the parks or rides particularly (and I say this despite finding even Megafobia not exactly great until about 8:30 PM on a late close day). I'd say the problem is that the public perception of a wooden coaster doesn't match the reality of a good modern wooden coaster, so if you ask somebody on the street whether they'd ride one as part of your market research they don't understand what you're actually asking them to make a decision on!

Man On Street has perhaps been to Blackpool and had a bad run on Nash or Mouse, or has seen old footage of ancient woodies torn down long ago that were slow and cumbersome. He may not even have enough knowledge of rides to know that you can build a coaster from wood. Surely that would be nowhere near strong enough, and hence unsafe? He therefore assumes the worst, that you want to know whether he'd go on a slow, boring, uncomfortable or even painful ride that isn't safe and could collapse if the ADIPS chap looks at it the wrong way.

Man On Street has never heard of Troy or Wodan, let alone ever seen a video of them running, and it's not easy to explain how they're different to what he's imagining even if you show him a fancy video. If you simply ask whether he'd go on one he'll probably quickly reply with a no, and if you include it in a list of options to pick from for what he'd like the next big attraction to be he's never going to choose it. Doubly so if you just put it there with no explanation ('Wooden rollercoaster'). He's familiar with the other options.

Frustratingly, if you take him to a park with a good woodie and stand him in front of it, he'll probably look at it and gulp, but he'll probably also ride it and enjoy it. Until you see one in action, you can't really get the appeal of a woodie like you can with some rides.

I firmly believe that a fantastic modern woodie at the right park could be massively popular. Take Drayton Manor for instance. Realistically I don't think they could build a woodie quiet enough for their neighbours, but Thomas Land has dramatically increased awareness of Drayton and made it somewhere that people will travel to from further afield. If they could build a fast, thrilling GCI they'd not only finally have a good large coaster, but one that older families could all enjoy. I'm sure it would be a huge success, but it's the type of ride that requires management to take a risk and say "our guests haven't told us they want this, but it would be great and they'd love it so we'll build it". Only an independent UK park could do that, and I don't think any of them will be in a position to any time soon.
 
BBC have gone to Paramount! - Well in principle!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...o-exploit-Doctor-Who-and-Top-Gear-brands.html

Well that's Merlin's connections with the BBC gone!!! I would imagine Cbeebies land will run out in 2019 anyway.
I always thought with a brand as strong as the BBC it needed a big theme park player who will take it seriously.

Really interesting this is gathering alot of steam.
 
Ooh this is really interesting news! That adds a massive number of possibilities for attractions at the park, and a deal with someone external to Paramount and of the calibre of BBC Worldwide really adds weight to this project going ahead.

Interesting to see how the Merlin side of things pans out as a result of this. It may not necessarily mean that any deal with Merlin is down the pan. Although it's not on as big a scale, the likes of Angry Birds for example features in a few attractions across the UK. I do think it means that any BBC deal with Merlin will now be limited to CBeebies though, I can't see a big budget ride having say a Dr Who IP at say Thorpe as well as at Paramount.
 
Yep, this kind of kills off the rumours that Thorpe or Alton will be getting a Doctor Who dark ride. I would expect CBeebies to be around for a while though
 
I agree Craig, i don't think we will see any major BBC and Merlin deals now. I think its safe to say that the Thorpe project will not be BBC . I am not sure about CBeebies, its always felt very temporary and I expect it to always be kept up-to scratch by demand of BBC Worldwide. We all know how bad the Towers are for looking after the attractions and doing maintenance. How much of in the night garden was working at the end of the season?

Anyway Its great news for the project, i was traveling past it the other day and I thought WOW its so the right location.
 
This would be a shame for Towers if Cbeebies Land lasted barely a decade there, It seemed like a great IP for them.
 
I somehow think the article's got the wrong end of the stick a bit by calling a 'BBC theme park', when it's likely to be only a few attractions with BBC IPs attached to them, and Paramount IPs will probably have more prominence to an extent. Having said that, this is a big deal for the project, and gives me more hope that it will actually go ahead.
 
A newspaper getting the wrong end of the stick? Well I never ;). But yes, the deal is for BBC Worldwide properties to feature in the resort, in the same way that Paramount's properties will. The full press release from London Paramount is:

PARTNERSHIP WITH BBC WORLDWIDE TO PUT BEST OF BBC CONTENT AT HEART OF NEW ENTERTAINMENT RESORT
10 December 2014
A landmark agreement has been struck today that could see some of BBC Worldwide’s biggest brands feature prominently in a new entertainment resort near London supported by leading Hollywood studio Paramount Pictures.

London Resort Company Holdings (LRCH), the company behind the multi-billion pound London Paramount Entertainment Resort in North Kent, has signed a Development Agreement with the commercial arm of the BBC to feature their intellectual property at the resort alongside leading Hollywood studio Paramount Pictures.

The partnership agreement would mean that some of the best loved and celebrated programmes and characters to appear on British TV and radio in recent decades could be brought to life at a new world-class entertainment destination.

The Development Agreement is the first step towards a formal partnership between BBC Worldwide and the London Paramount Entertainment Resort, which is currently earmarked for an Easter 2020 opening date. LRCH already has a separate agreement in place with Paramount Pictures, the oldest major Hollywood studio in existence, which will allow the resort to access over 3,000 films including iconic movies such as Mission: Impossible, Star Trek, The Godfather and The Italian Job.

David Testa, Director of LRCH, said:

"We are delighted to bring the world's leading public service broadcaster on board this project. The BBC has played an instrumental role in shaping the British entertainment industry for nearly a century, creating some of the most iconic and cherished characters on TV and radio. It seems only right therefore that its programmes will be present at the new London Paramount Entertainment Resort, which will combine the glamour of Hollywood with the best of British culture.”

Stephen Davies, Director Live Events, BBC Worldwide, said:

“We’re always looking for opportunities to extend fans’ enjoyment of their favourite shows and the idea behind this resort is a really exciting way of celebrating the very special place the BBC has in British culture.”

Mike Bartok, Executive Vice President Parks & Resorts, Paramount Pictures,said:

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"It is outstanding to be working with a globally recognised brand with such a rich, respected history. We see London Paramount as a pioneer in the delivery of an outstanding partnership entertainment experience."
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