TBC: SW9 Speculation

[James]

I think they will take the approach of closing it for a season (or half a season) then re-market it as 'new' the following year, that will be enough to interest the general public.

They could go for 'Nemesis: Reborn' or something like that for the sake of marketing.

I do wonder whether Towers may go one step further and add a pre-show/room or maybe a shop at the end of the ride, to make it more similar to the newer coasters.

 

[Jb85]

I think they will take the approach of closing it for a season (or half a season) then re-market it as 'new' the following year, that will be enough to interest the general public.

They could go for 'Nemesis: Reborn' or something like that for the sake of marketing.

I do wonder whether Towers may go one step further and add a pre-show/room or maybe a shop at the end of the ride, to make it more similar to the newer coasters.

A shop? They’ve got rid of Airs / Oblivions so can’t see that happening. Both a silly cost cutting exercise really.

Can’t see a pre show working either. You’d have to extend the station surely?

 

[JAperson]

I think they will take the approach of closing it for a season (or half a season) then re-market it as 'new' the following year, that will be enough to interest the general public.

They could go for 'Nemesis: Reborn' or something like that for the sake of marketing.

I do wonder whether Towers may go one step further and add a pre-show/room or maybe a shop at the end of the ride, to make it more similar to the newer coasters.

I could see them marketing it as nemesis reborn but not actually changing the rides name. As for a shop id say that's possible as they'd want to use the excuse to sell new merchandise or whatever. As for a preshow I doubt it and I'm not even sure where they could put one that would make the queue have the same feeling. Especially because I think its the best queues at towers.

 

[DistortAMG]

A shop? They’ve got rid of Airs / Oblivions so can’t see that happening. Both a silly cost cutting exercise really.

Can’t see a pre show working either. You’d have to extend the station surely?

As for the pre show. They could build it in front of the station. Then when you cross over the bridge where the track goes under after the vertical loop, you could go right instead of left. Make your way through the pre show, then go along existing queue along the side if the station, as you do now. That could possibly work I guess. The pre she doesn't nessicerially have to be immediately before the station I wouldn't have thought. Even so, it requires construction of some sort. But that is likely anyway.

 

[JAperson]

As for the pre show. They could build it in front of the station. Then when you cross over the bridge where the track goes under after the vertical loop, you could go right instead of left. Make your way through the pre show, then go along existing queue along the side if the station, as you do now. That could possibly work I guess. The pre she doesn't nessicerially have to be immediately before the station I wouldn't have thought. Even so, it requires construction of some sort. But that is likely anyway.

As much as I get what your saying I'm just not convinced that nemesis even needs a pre-show. If I understand where your suggesting to put it (which I'm not 100% sure I do) that could well ruin the views your get as you walk by the over the top of the track before turning onto the bridge towards the station entrance. I think nemesis works as is to be honest and wouldn't be in favour of any major changes. If they were to retrack it I would prefer they just did it as close to 1994 as possible and it would be truly amazing to see it as it was originally.

 

[Jb85]

As much as I get what your saying I'm just not convinced that nemesis even needs a pre-show. If I understand where your suggesting to put it (which I'm not 100% sure I do) that could well ruin the views your get as you walk by the over the top of the track before turning onto the bridge towards the station entrance. I think nemesis works as is to be honest and wouldn't be in favour of any major changes. If they were to retrack it I would prefer they just did it as close to 1994 as possible and it would be truly amazing to see it as it was originally.

I actually think @DistortAMG has a point. You could surely use part of the old extended queue line to host a pre show?

 

[JAperson]

I actually think @DistortAMG has a point. You could surely use part of the old extended queue line to host a pre show?

Aaah now I see where @DistortAMG is on about. Yes I suppose that could work (my apologies). I'm still not sure it needs a pre-show though but it could be cool (if done well).

 

[DistortAMG]

You could use part of the extended queue line. But I ment basically the space underneath the track immediately as you exit the station on the ride. You could easily route the queue in and out there. But not sure it would be the best place from an aesthetic point of view.

 

[Matt N]

I’ve got to say, the more I think about SW9, the more I think that I’m honestly unsure if I see the park getting a big new coaster at any time in the near future.

As much as I said in the Paultons thread that my mind often leaps into coaster building mode when I think about future additions to parks, I’m honestly not sure if a coaster is what I see coming to Alton Towers next, personally. Unlike Thorpe prior to today’s news (my personal hunch is B&M Hyper) and other parks (I could see Paultons building a step-up thrill coaster, for instance), I’ll admit that I struggle to see a coaster, or at very least a new big 7-calibre thrill coaster, in Towers’ near future when I think about it.

In my opinion, there’s nothing the park is glaringly missing in terms of coasters (apart from possibly an indoor coaster), and nothing that strongly leaps to mind in terms of a coaster Towers could go for. There are numerous thrill coasters I’d absolutely love at Towers, don’t get me wrong (an Intamin Blitz, for one!), but none strongly leap to mind and just fit for me in terms of filling a gap in the lineup like, say, a B&M Hyper would at Thorpe. I’m honestly quite content with how Towers’ coaster lineup is now, and a lot of the things that come to mind coaster-wise for me are more holistic ride types that fill a void within another non-coaster ride category, such as a water coaster or story-driven dark ride coaster. Unlike with some other parks we’ve discussed the future of at length recently, nothing strongly leaps out as a coaster I could see Towers getting or a coaster that would really fill a void in the lineup. The park’s coaster lineup is now extremely strong and very well-rounded, in my opinion.

I personally think we’ve reached a point where Towers could tick over just fine without a new coaster for a good few years now. Don’t get me wrong, I’d be thrilled if another big coaster was built in, say, 2024 or whatever, but I’m not personally sure that I see it. I think the next major will be the Nemesis retrack, and that that will have happened at some point by 2025, and then perhaps a major new dark ride in the mid to late 2020s.

I know it might be controversial, but I now think that we won’t see SW9 in the traditional sense until after 2025 (unless retracked Nemesis is SW9), possibly getting on for the end of the 2020s. And even though I’m a big coaster guy, I’m honestly quite content with that; Towers’ coaster lineup is very diverse and has no obvious holes, and a lot of the things that I’d like to see Towers do and/or that I could see Towers getting are honestly things away from new thrill coasters at this point, such as retracked Nemesis and a major new dark ride.

I’m open to being proven wrong, and I would be absolutely thrilled if Towers did build SW9 before 2025, but that’s my personal prediction.

 

[Matt.GC]

I’ve got to say, the more I think about SW9, the more I think that I’m honestly unsure if I see the park getting a big new coaster at any time in the near future.

As much as I said in the Paultons thread that my mind often leaps into coaster building mode when I think about future additions to parks, I’m honestly not sure if a coaster is what I see coming to Alton Towers next, personally. Unlike Thorpe prior to today’s news (my personal hunch is B&M Hyper) and other parks (I could see Paultons building a step-up thrill coaster, for instance), I’ll admit that I struggle to see a coaster, or at very least a new big 7-calibre thrill coaster, in Towers’ near future when I think about it.

In my opinion, there’s nothing the park is glaringly missing in terms of coasters (apart from possibly an indoor coaster), and nothing that strongly leaps to mind in terms of a coaster Towers could go for. There are numerous thrill coasters I’d absolutely love at Towers, don’t get me wrong (an Intamin Blitz, for one!), but none strongly leap to mind and just fit for me in terms of filling a gap in the lineup like, say, a B&M Hyper would at Thorpe. I’m honestly quite content with how Towers’ coaster lineup is now, and a lot of the things that come to mind coaster-wise for me are more holistic ride types that fill a void within another non-coaster ride category, such as a water coaster or story-driven dark ride coaster. Unlike with some other parks we’ve discussed the future of at length recently, nothing strongly leaps out as a coaster I could see Towers getting or a coaster that would really fill a void in the lineup. The park’s coaster lineup is now extremely strong and very well-rounded, in my opinion.

I personally think we’ve reached a point where Towers could tick over just fine without a new coaster for a good few years now. Don’t get me wrong, I’d be thrilled if another big coaster was built in, say, 2024 or whatever, but I’m not personally sure that I see it. I think the next major will be the Nemesis retrack, and that that will have happened at some point by 2025, and then perhaps a major new dark ride in the mid to late 2020s.

I know it might be controversial, but I now think that we won’t see SW9 in the traditional sense until after 2025 (unless retracked Nemesis is SW9), possibly getting on for the end of the 2020s. And even though I’m a big coaster guy, I’m honestly quite content with that; Towers’ coaster lineup is very diverse and has no obvious holes, and a lot of the things that I’d like to see Towers do and/or that I could see Towers getting are honestly things away from new thrill coasters at this point, such as retracked Nemesis and a major new dark ride.

I’m open to being proven wrong, and I would be absolutely thrilled if Towers did build SW9 before 2025, but that’s my personal prediction.

If you were posting this as an opinion rather than a prediction I think this would be shared with the majority of us.

This thread is filled with repeated comments about Towers needing a new expensive thrill coaster like a hole in the head. There's loads missing at Towers and a decent coaster lineup isn't one of them. There is a gap in the coaster lineup but it's in the airtime department more than anything and that's not a bad place to be as a park with most of the other boxes ticked off. But for a park of it's size and supposed stature, it's food, flat, dark and whole family offering is frankly embarrassing. As is the upkeep of the place, especially in terms of theming and ageing (monorail and toilets for example) infrastructure.

But as a prediction, no. We all know the likelihood is they'll just ignore the issues and just build a new one anyway.

 

[Alastair]

The problem with the potential for Towers getting a dark ride is that I have no confidence that it will be anything other than mediocre. If they waste a large investment year on another Garmendale contraption then any element of holisticity (if that is a valid word) will go down the pan, and we'll all be regretting that they didn't go for a good old B&M instead.

 

[Matt N]

If you were posting this as an opinion rather than a prediction I think this would be shared with the majority of us.

This thread is filled with repeated comments about Towers needing a new expensive thrill coaster like a hole in the head. There's loads missing at Towers and a decent coaster lineup isn't one of them. There is a gap in the coaster lineup but it's in the airtime department more than anything and that's not a bad place to be as a park with most of the other boxes ticked off. But for a park of it's size and supposed stature, it's food, flat, dark and whole family offering is frankly embarrassing. As is the upkeep of the place, especially in terms of theming and ageing (monorail and toilets for example) infrastructure.

But as a prediction, no. We all know the likelihood is they'll just ignore the issues and just build a new one anyway.

You never know… Merlin have been throwing some interesting curveballs since they went private, and based on some of the changes at Towers alone, budgets do seem to be increasing a fair bit (at least, from an operational standpoint). Nick Varney has also expressed intention to increase investment into RTPs, and in the videos speaking about Merlin’s private buyout, he spoke a lot about “long-term investment”.

And personally, I’d be chuffed to bits with a new coaster, I’m just saying that I’m not sure they need one per se and I’m not sure it’s what I see in their future.

The problem with the potential for Towers getting a dark ride is that I have no confidence that it will be anything other than mediocre. If they waste a large investment year on another Garmendale contraption then any element of holisticity (if that is a valid word) will go down the pan, and we'll all be regretting that they didn't go for a good old B&M instead.

What’s the matter with Garmendale, out of interest? I know they’re widely seen as a cheaper supplier, but I personally thought GG’s ride system (Spin Master) was really quite good myself, and they do some impressive-looking products that would suit Towers well, in my opinion, such as a trackless dark ride, a motion base dark ride (going to Gardaland next year) and an omnimover!

Also, Merlin may well open the budget up for a more expensive supplier, such as ETF, if it were a major investment year.

Given the likes of Wicker Man, I’m personally confident that Merlin could pull off a really good dark ride, and while I haven’t ridden any of their others, I’d argue that we have evidence that they can in the form of Gangsta Granny, and that was even done on a much lower budget than any major investment Towers dark ride would be!

 

[Dave]

The problem with the potential for Towers getting a dark ride is that I have no confidence that it will be anything other than mediocre. If they waste a large investment year on another Garmendale contraption then any element of holisticity (if that is a valid word) will go down the pan, and we'll all be regretting that they didn't go for a good old B&M instead.

See this is where I disagree, you could make a fantastic dark ride with a “garmendale contraption”. From what I can see the ride system for Gangsta Granny is fine, and does exactly what it was intended to do (particularly as it was never actually designed to be used at Towers).

People get a bit snobby about Garmendale but all ride companies start somewhere and what they have built seems fine. Surely it would be better to use a local company that might be cheaper for the ride hardware, and spend more money on the theming which is the heart of a dark ride anyway?

 

[Jb85]

See this is where I disagree, you could make a fantastic dark ride with a “garmendale contraption”. From what I can see the ride system for Gangsta Granny is fine, and does exactly what it was intended to do (particularly as it was never actually designed to be used at Towers).

People get a bit snobby about Garmendale but all ride companies start somewhere and what they have built seems fine. Surely it would be better to use a local company that might be cheaper for the ride hardware, and spend more money on the theming which is the heart of a dark ride anyway?

Out of interest where was it intended to be used?

 

[Skyscraper]

Out of interest where was it intended to be used?

It was originally destined for a Dungeons site, but can't remember which.

 

[Dave]

Madame Tussauds

 

[Alastair]

What’s the matter with Garmendale, out of interest? I know they’re widely seen as a cheaper supplier, but I personally thought GG’s ride system (Spin Master) was really quite good myself, and they do some impressive-looking products that would suit Towers well, in my opinion, such as a trackless dark ride, a motion base dark ride (going to Gardaland next year) and an omnimover!

Also, Merlin may well open the budget up for a more expensive supplier, such as ETF, if it were a major investment year.

Given the likes of Wicker Man, I’m personally confident that Merlin could pull off a really good dark ride, and while I haven’t ridden any of their others, I’d argue that we have evidence that they can in the form of Gangsta Granny, and that was even done on a much lower budget than any major investment Towers dark ride would be!

See this is where I disagree, you could make a fantastic dark ride with a “garmendale contraption”. From what I can see the ride system for Gangsta Granny is fine, and does exactly what it was intended to do (particularly as it was never actually designed to be used at Towers).

Maybe I'm being overly critical, but though I agree that GG is perfectly adequate given its purpose, for me it's primarily the actual ride system which lets it down. It's clumsy and feels bumbling and imprecise (for example in the "dropping into the sewers" section, where it just kind of moves you side to side at a slow pace, with no correlation to the action on-screen). I realise the budgets are on another level, but it's really a laughably cheap feeling system which gives me no confidence that they could every even attempt to pull off something akin to a Universal product. I'd love to be proven wrong, however, and I suppose the motion base ride at Gardaland might be the only thing on the horizon that could feasibly do that.

 

[DistortAMG]

I have to agree. I feel the ride system does what it needs to in terms of GG. But it feels imprecise and clumsy. These are why I have concerns about scaling this technology up to a high capacity, intensively used dark ride system. It feels a system like this would crumble under any sort of intense and faster use.

That said, their larger scale ride systems might be built to a higher specification and standard, for all we know, these could be low quality, because Merlin demanded they be built for a specific price. A common practice in business with large companies as customers.

So while GG does not fill me confidence, I would not rule them out just yet. I will be keen to see what this Gardaland system is like, that should give us a better indication. Plus, the more they build, they better they are bound to get.

 

[Josh555]

The problem with the potential for Towers getting a dark ride is that I have no confidence that it will be anything other than mediocre. If they waste a large investment year on another Garmendale contraption then any element of holisticity (if that is a valid word) will go down the pan, and we'll all be regretting that they didn't go for a good old B&M instead.

I know where you’re coming from with this but if you look at what they did with Wicker Man in terms of the theming and general intelligence behind the ride, there’s no reason why those skills can’t be translated to a dark ride. I do appreciate that our expectations are rightly low given Derren Brown’s Ghost Train and Sub-Terra (which I actually don’t mind but it was still a missed opportunity).

I still think it’s mad that there is a pirate themed area without a real true pirate themed ride (I know they have Heave How and Battle Gallions which are themed around pirate ships but you would expect an area like that to have a flagship attraction with a bit more to it, a Maelstrom, Valhalla style pirate themed water ride would be an excellent investment which would also tick the dark ride box.

 

[Dave]

Maybe I'm being overly critical, but though I agree that GG is perfectly adequate given its purpose, for me it's primarily the actual ride system which lets it down. It's clumsy and feels bumbling and imprecise (for example in the "dropping into the sewers" section, where it just kind of moves you side to side at a slow pace, with no correlation to the action on-screen). I realise the budgets are on another level, but it's really a laughably cheap feeling system which gives me no confidence that they could every even attempt to pull off something akin to a Universal product. I'd love to be proven wrong, however, and I suppose the motion base ride at Gardaland might be the only thing on the horizon that could feasibly do that.

Ultimately these ride systems are mechanics and control systems, none of it is a mystery.

You could of course get a major well known ride company to build an out and back ride system designed as an underground train at great expense and manage to completely fluff it all up!

A great dark ride is much bigger than the builder of the transit system it uses.