Thatcher's dead

[Plastic Person]

As for making the country a worse place? Very objectionable I would say, a miner on an unsustainable salary might agree with you but anyone with the slightest aspiration wouldn't.

Miners had aspirations too, even if they were to keep food on the table, work reasonable hours and perhaps enjoy a holiday or two, as well as better education for their children.

I aspire to things, as is human nature, but most people are able to keep their ethics and a constructive viewpoint of the world in check. Life can be a miserable slog, and the variations in circumstance are so extreme, that Thatcher's century of self was never going to work out for everyone. I hope to do well in life, but it doesn't make me angry that others either don't have the chance or fail. I wish their wasn't such a history of the free market economy dissolving into utter spite.

 

[CoasterCrazyChris]

You don't have to believe a word I type, Thatcher ACTUALLY did make the country a worse place, actually did call Mandela a terrorist, whether I say she did or not.

Not if you lived south of the midlands.

My parents are by no means rich, but they told me during the 80's they enjoyed a better standard of living than they had before and so did most of their friends.

Also it was during her leadership that all three of our favourite UK Merlin parks were created - Alton Towers, Thorpe Park and Chessington. Just to contextualize how quickly we became a service sector economy.

 

[Jem8472]

The thing is the unions needed to be controlled! They were too powerful, greedy, corrupt and needed to be scaled back. I think its too far the other way now but what they used to get up to was amazing!

Consider this:
This is taken from Bill Brysons book Notes from a small country. He worked as a journalist in Fleet street in the 80s where there was a lot of trouble with the print unions and they moved to Wapping.

"The unions decided how many workers were needed on each paper (hundreds and hundreds) and how many were to be laid of during a recession (none). Managers didn't have the power to hire and fire their own print workers, indeed generally didn't even know how many print workers they employed. In December 1985 auditors found 300 yes 300! extra printing staff at the Telegraph. They were paying 300 people and they did not even know it!

Printers were paid under a piece-rate system so byzantine hat every composing room on fleet street had a piece-rate book the size of a telephone directory. On top of plump salaries, printers received special bonus payments for handling type of irregular sizes, for dealing with heavily edited copy, or setting words in a language other than English, for the white space at the ends of lines. If work was done out of house they were compensated for not doing it.

All this was added up at the end of the week but a senior union man and the bill handed to the management. Many skilled printers were in the top 2% of British earnings"

That is the sort of thing that was going on all over British industries. It was totally unsustainable. It had to stop and Labour tried to stop it but failed.

The unions were nasty as well, I remember seeing a documentary on TV about what the unions were doing during the strikes/ riots and there was plenty of violence and threats. I just wish I could remember the name of the program.

Also if you worked anywhere that was closed shop you have to be in that union to work there. You HAD to pay union subs, part of that goes to the labour party regardless if you support them or not. Hardly a free and fair system.

Strikes were called by anyone over anything.

Imagine being at Alton towers and its a busy day so the management choose to put another train on a ride. If the union does not like it, they would call a meeting have a show of hands and be out on strike because the management was trying to make them work a little harder. Before they would go back to work they would have another vote and because of the fact there was a second train they would want a pay rise, even if it was never used!

It was mad, we would be stuck in the 70s if the unions power had not be scaled back. Its now too far in the managements favour and I would like some power back to the unions.

But whoever has all the power will become corrupt be it management or unions.

I work as a newspaper printer and I would love to be in the top 2% of earners, but that is never going to happen and if it had continued then there would be no newspapers as they would have died out long ago because of the costs involved. Unless you wanted to pay a £10 for a newspaper.

 

[Adam]

Why is it that when jokes/disrespectful comments are made about the 96 who died at Hillsborough and the 323 people on board the Belgrano, that there's not such a massive outrage?

 

[Martin]

You don't have to believe a word I type, Thatcher ACTUALLY did make the country a worse place, actually did call Mandela a terrorist, whether I say she did or not.

Not if you lived south of the midlands.

My parents are by no means rich, but they told me during the 80's they enjoyed a better standard of living than they had before and so did most of their friends.

Also it was during her leadership that all three of our favourite UK Merlin parks were created - Alton Towers, Thorpe Park and Chessington. Just to contextualize how quickly we became a service sector economy.

Thousands suffered but at least you were alright. That justifies everything then.

I couldn't care less who was in charge when Alton Towers opened. Unless she built it herself the link is pretty tenuous. The new Wembley was built under Blair. Does that mean it's ok that he's a war criminal? Hundreds are dead because of his illegal war, but hey, we have a nice stadium. I'd much rather have no Thatcher and no Alton.

 

[pluk]

Why is it that when jokes/disrespectful comments are made about the 96 who died at Hillsborough and the 323 people on board the Belgrano, that there's not such a massive outrage?

1) When and where are people doing this? I've not seen it (propoganda type news at the time it occurred aside), certainly not here, and if it was done publicly I'm quite sure there would be a justifiable outcry.

2) 'Joking and being disrespectful' about deaths is very very different to celebrating them.

3) Two wrongs don't make a right was one of the first things I learnt at school.

Another of my favourites of the last couple of days, don't know who it is from

"There is no such thing as society" - Margaret Thatcher, 1988

"There is no such thing as Margaret Thatcher" - Society, 2013

 

[willb]

It is incomprehensible how utterly clueless people can be,

And not only that but feel like they are able to form an opinion on a matter whilst being so misinformed, or more likely, following others beliefs.

Thatcher did wrong and right, like any politician. Right to buy, start the demise of communism etc... Please research a topic thoroughly before calling someone evil.

I'm not defending her by any means, but some people on here are seeming willing to show how uneducated and easily influenced they are.

The curse of google...

 

[Oli]

'wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy' isn't supposed to be just a catchy phrase, it is about being humane.

Whatever it is that Thatcher did to upset you so you are making me wonder whether you deserve it.

A whole country celebrating their death... That is something I would wish on my worst enemy. Hell, it's something I'd wish on some of my lesser enemies (and even a few of my allies)

Unless you were talking about her dementia. It's unpleasant, and distressing... and yet I feel it is a brilliant wish upon a worst enemy. You could literally force all of their loved ones to watch them forget them as if they didn't exist.

 

[TheMan]

OK, people talking of facts straight. Right-to-buy depleted housing stock and resulted in a mass influx of landlords, it also resulted in a housing price boom, that bust along with the rest of the boom/bust Tory economic policy, which then resulted in 1000s of repossessed homes.

Yes. Excellent work that.

Start the demise of communism, whilst introducing the premise of privatisation to the world, making a fortune for their chums out of our natural resources, and blowing the lot. Yes, excellent again. She also managed to do this whilst being chums with a genocidal dictator.

She screwed us all again, by beginning the deregulation of the City, which led (contrary to the idea it was Labours fault the global economy collapsed which Tories seem to spew a lot now lol!) to the financial crisis we have now.

It is absolutely amazing, how little people on here know, who accuse others of not knowing much. I can take disagreements, opinions, different effects from different places/backgrounds, but when those who have suffered make remark, and then get accused of not getting their facts right - by people who don't have their facts straight, I'm sorry whether this gets me into trouble or not, I HAVE to take that to task.

Thatchers policy was based on boom and bust. In or out. White or Black. Straight or Gay. Rich or Poor.

If you were any of the latter, you'd had it. She then bred a climate of demonising the latter, so that people who were doing well, stuck with her as they were OK, and it was better than being on the wrong side.

Some did very, very well - enough to keep her in power, and in this country due to our voting system, that is all you need and screw the rest.

 

[Laura]

I agree with Gary. To me she was a person in power when I was very young. But (personally) she represents general ideals that were applicable to my family during my upbringing, and so have shaped my beliefs and values as an adult. Not everything she did was wonderful and the same is true for every political figure.

What I find most awful is that social media (and probably the rest of this thread if I went back and read it) is subjecting me to the nasty, hateful messages my friends are spewing from the safety of their monitors about 'Tory Scum' and 'The Witch is Dead' and so on.

I would never force my views on ANYONE and I certainly would not post (or say) inflammatory things about other people's political views, in the same way I wouldn't about race, religion, sexual orientation, and so on. I only wish other people could be so courteous! But because the majority of my friends share the same view, it's apparently OK for them to post hateful generalisations about people who vote in a certain way.

Maybe if I was vocal about particular issues then I would be deserving of it. But I'm not. I am faithful to my own political beliefs and I use them only to shape the way I live my life.

This is something that has bothered me for a very long time and every time there is a 'flare up' like this I find the same horrible messages condemning me for voting a particular way. I find it upsetting. I'm sure it's nowhere near the level that other minorities suffer and I know the abuse isn't personal, but my friends make me feel like a criminal and a freak. And that is the one thing I can't get to grips with in social media.

I think you just probably need to develop more conviction in your inherited beliefs.

I am not from a poor background in the grand scheme of things, and I find many political actions abhorrent and heartless, but principally from the Tory party. It's difficult to accept someone like yourself demanding tolerance and respect for the way you feel, essentially progress, when they're essentially what Thatcher herself lacked - the working classes, homosexuals, women and at the worst of times, anyone lacking rampant ambition suffered at her hands.

Perhaps the nose turning is the price you pay for your wealth?

Sorry, I'm not sure if this is a dig at me or not. I don't consider any political party perfect nor do I consider myself a perfect person, apologies if I did not make this clear.

We are all individuals and I was just expressing my upset that social networking does not allow for us to be considered as individuals. I disagree with a lot of things she did and I disagree with a lot of things the current government is doing. This goes for Dobba as well who has also made a comment directed at me - I fully accept that politics (the same as the ENTIRE WORLD) is full of blithering idiots making ridiculous claims and comparisons to further their own agenda. I am certainly not defending anyone.

Incidentally, if it IS me you're having a dig at, I don't feel it's helpful or necessary for me to explain my reasons and actions for why I feel like I do and I find your comments very hurtful. I am certainly not wealthy by any means and I find it horrible that you have just assumed that. You have just made a generalisation that, while there is nothing wrong with, has caused me upset. That's the point I'm making.

I'm not telling anyone to stop, I'm not telling anyone they're wrong. I certainly haven't 'demanded' anything, I've 'expressed a wish!' I'm just saying that it upsets me. Maybe it upsets other people? I felt it was worth posting it to find out, even if I was opening myself up for more grief and I probably should have done what I always do and kept it to myself. If you've judged me for it then I'm sorry that you've felt the need to.

Well, it is and it isn't a dig at you, like most discussions on this or any forum. I was mainly just highlighting what I see as the irony of you calling for tolerance at being 'treated like a freak' for being a Conservative supporter. Although then again, you haven't identified yourself either way, your post is so vague as to what you actually mean and the meat of why you feel like you do. Sorry for assuming you're wealthy too, but your post implied that Thatcher's policies were important to your family, and Thatcher's policies were largely dictated by pleasing the wealthy.

The whole nation is reflecting on the legacy of a woman who statistically brought large parts of the country to it's knees, and whilst I personally can't advocate grave jigging, many of them are still reeling. There are more upsetting truths than how you feel as a maligned Tory, for all involved.

I'm not really talking about politics or policies. I'm talking about my own individual wish that people could be more courteous. To be honest, the politics isn't what gets me. It's just people. This could be applied to anything, really.

And of course there are much more upsetting truths, but I don't believe it is wrong of me to make mention of the ones that affect me right now. Since the topic is about a specific thing, well this is my 'reaction to the reaction' of this event. I don't feel it's inappropriate to say what I have.

I can't really speak for my family at the time Thatcher was in power. I was a child. To be honest, it is irrelevant and I shouldn't have mentioned it. I am defending nothing except my own sensibilities, naive as they may be.

I'm sorry if I did not make my post clear. It is difficult to convey this type of feeling to strangers via the written word, as I'm sure everyone has experienced! The absolute last thing I want to do is get up anyone's nose, and I could go round in circles second guessing how I am inevitably going to do so!

 

[TheMan]

The absolute last thing I want to do is get up anyone's nose, and I could go round in circles second guessing how I am inevitably going to do so!

I really wouldn't worry Laura, regardless of whatever you do, you will never please everyone ever. And the stronger your opinions, the more you will be loved and hated in equal measure - not unlike Mrs T.

Bit off topic, but I'd always just be yourself and honest, but respectfully and keep an open mind as to opinion changes - that's why I do as best I can. I understand how people benefited from Mrs T. Plenty did, no doubt about that, and she increased aspects of social mobility - the thing is, it pretty much then came at the cost of everything else in this country - too heavy a price, the burden of which we are still paying for now.

The only opinions I never understand, are the ones that say no one else is entitled to theirs.

 

[Harold]

R.I.P Mrs. Thatcher (The greatest leader this county has seen), the way you did things was fantastic, a true hero

 

[Aspyrational]

Because we've gone on several pages about the war, and you've made it quite clear you're delighted with people dying because they're foreign


Lie number one


You don't have to believe a word I type


I don't



Thatcher ACTUALLY did make the country a worse place



You're stating an opinion. Not a fact. Lie number two



actually did call Mandela a terrorist, whether I say she did or not


Lie number three, you're doing well.


Are you focusing on the war because it's the one thing she did that you can defend?



One thing at a time. Looks like you argument on the Belgrano has been blown out of the water, no pun intended.



So the mines


Who closed more pits, Wilson or Thatcher

 

[Martin]

Thatcher DID call Mandela a terrorist. Sorry, but she did.

She also called Pinochet a mate. And Suharto. She also aided the genocide in Cambodia. She also helped Sadam.

Inequality rose under her. In my book, that's making the country worse.

Go look these up before calling me a liar.

 

[Plastic Person]

R.I.P Mrs. Thatcher (The greatest leader this county has seen), the way you did things was fantastic

I'm not sure she posts here? More of a Coasterforce type.

 

[Aspyrational]

Thatcher DID call Mandela a terrorist. Sorry, but she did.

She also called Pinochet a mate. And Suharto. She also aided the genocide in Cambodia. She also helped Sadam.

Inequality rose under her. In my book, that's making the country worse.

Go look these up before calling me a liar.

Find me a quote where she called Mandela a terrorist.

 

[Laura]

The absolute last thing I want to do is get up anyone's nose, and I could go round in circles second guessing how I am inevitably going to do so!

I really wouldn't worry Laura, regardless of whatever you do, you will never please everyone ever. And the stronger your opinions, the more you will be loved and hated in equal measure - not unlike Mrs T.

Bit off topic, but I'd always just be yourself and honest, but respectfully and keep an open mind as to opinion changes - that's why I do as best I can. I understand how people benefited from Mrs T. Plenty did, no doubt about that, and she increased aspects of social mobility - the thing is, it pretty much then came at the cost of everything else in this country - too heavy a price, the burden of which we are still paying for now.

The only opinions I never understand, are the ones that say no one else is entitled to theirs.

Of course you are absolutely right, but my god I will not stop trying to please as many people as possible! It'll probably be the death of me, this internal conflict between my own feelings and my concern for everyone else.

I believe I am respectful, and if I think something is going to potentially offend someone I will try to phrase it so that person understands it's not my intent, but I don't want to feel afraid to say it. Other times I just won't bother to say it, whatever it was probably wasn't important in the grand scheme of things. It's not the best approach for forums or social networking but even the internet cannot help me hide!

Opinions are fine and encouraged. Nastiness, assumptions, generalisations, and 'jumping on the bandwagon' make me feel uncomfortable (not saying it's wrong, this is just my reaction). I've tried to make a distinction between these but I'm not clear in the way I express myself. I could go on forever but I'm getting bored of my own internal monologue.

 

[Martin]

Her exact words were "[ANC are a] Typical terrorist organisation". Mandella, a She was a racist who supported Apartheid.

Tell me, what is your opinion on gay people? How do you feel about Section 28?

 

[Aspyrational]

Her exact words were "[ANC are a] Typical terrorist organisation". Mandella, a She was a racist who supported Apartheid.

Tell me, what is your opinion on gay people? How do you feel about Section 28?

So she didn't call Mandela a terrorist then. She called an organisation whose military wing set off bombs that killed innocent people a 'typical terrorist organisation'. Sounds reasonable to me.

So the mines then. Who closed more pits and put more miners on the dole, Wilson or Thatcher ?

 

[Martin]

Unemployment under Labour - 1m
Unemployment under her first term peaked at 3.6m. Maybe 5m as they changed the criteria for who was counted.

It didn't go down to 1.6m until 1989.

Again, do you agree with Section 28?