[The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation

[Sammy]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

not only that but these trains are new for Gerstlauer so this is not like any other coaster they have built. Yes it is very similar however it has to support heavier trains. This is probably the reasoning for Gerstlauer wanting to be there when all track is put into place.

Oblivion and air were completely new ride types. New trains, new everything.

This has larger/heavier trains and a larger gauge track which is also probably heavier... I am placing my bets that there is a high proportion of new stuff for Gerst here too!

There really is no denying that this is a huge project for the park. It is going to be the longest coaster the park has ever built, also one of the highest ones. I mean it's going to be the 3rd longest coaster in the country for God's sake! This is a big project people! The ground work has been extensive, yes not quite to the scale of Oblivion, but much larger than that of Thirteen and Air. It will have been complex to get it right, it seems like a very complex coaster to me!

It is also a massive leap for Gerstlauer, probably bigger for them than for Towers tbh, it's the biggest thing they have every built and for one of the worlds largest clients! This really is something for them to prove themselves with!

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

t is also a massive leap for Gerstlauer, probably bigger for them than for Towers tbh, it's the biggest thing they have every built and for one of the worlds largest clients! This really is something for them to prove themselves with!

That's the first sensible point counter to mine that I have read.

Air, Nemmy, Oblivion and SW6 had so many far larger challenges to meet - but Sammy you are right, they are from people who built monumental coasters anyway. B&M and Intamin had overcome huge technical challenges, and broken the mold/pushed the envelopes out multiple times before each of those coasters were built.

Gerstlauer haven't done that yet. My points have all been about context, and when it's put to me in that sense, that it is massive for Gerstlauer, Sammy is right. I don't however buy, making it a bit longer makes it more challenging, you just need a bit more space, or a more compact design.

I don't wish people to misunderstand me, I think this coaster will be excellent, and I've been very much looking forward to it for months now! However, I still don't rate it, as equitable in challenge to the other SW coasters for Alton Tower's. If something incredible shows up out of the blue, I will change that opinion, but so far all I hear of is a slightly heavier, slightly longer coaster, with some new seats!

That doesn't mean it won't be an amazing coaster, but I am talking specifically of the time/technical challenges VS other SW coasters - not the entertainment/quality of the coaster itself, there are big, big differences there.

 

[Rob]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Just because there are some difference with previous projects does not make this one small or not challenging. I'm sorry but that view is naive. You also have to remember this is a very unusual site to build a coaster on, unlike many others. There are lot of elevation changes, and they are having to build part of the coaster over a current building. Combine this with a considerable amount of groundwork, the biggest thing Gerstlauer have ever done, a huge station building, extensive theming and possible special effects and you have one hell of a large and challenging project on your hands. Trying to deny this is ludicrous, it really is. Just because the pit isn't the size of Nemmy's or the technology isn't as advanced as Thirteen doesn't make this less challenging. Challenges are unique, they will not be the same for ever project. Challenges are also very site specific.

 

[CupCakeMonster]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

This is true but there is alot more track than with oblivion, 3 times the length track of oblivion. Also there is alot more theming than oblivion and the parts dont simply go in one direction. There are multiple parts of the track that intertwine unlike oblivion.

They should however have planned exactly which piece of track goes up 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc so should be pretty straight forward however we do have to remember its not a bog standard eurofighter

We were talking about the groundwork and the trains, but if you want to talk about track, so be it. The track shouldn't be hard to put up, at the end of the day that's what all of the roller coasters that any manufacturer makes are made up of. More track just means more time to put it up, it doesn't make the actual construction of it any more complex, as putting up those supports would be exactly the same as putting up the supports of it if it was just in an oval.

It can't be too far off a Eurofighter, as otherwise it wouldn't be able to go under that name.

There really is no denying that this is a huge project for the park. It is going to be the longest coaster the park has ever built, also one of the highest ones. I mean it's going to be the 3rd longest coaster in the country for God's sake! This is a big project people! The ground work has been extensive, yes not quite to the scale of Oblivion, but much larger than that of Thirteen and Air. It will have been complex to get it right, it seems like a very complex coaster to me!

I'm not saying it's not big, just not as complex groundwork-wise compared to Nemmy and Oblivion, and not as much new stuff as with Oblivion and Air. Also, this is the first Secret weapon that is a thrill coaster since Oblivion. All we were saying is that It's not THE most complex coaster they've ever done, they have done more complex ones, and they've been done on time. Therefore, I am confident that SW7 will be ready on time

All of the above relates to Alton. Alton were the ones who set their own time constraints with putting in the planning and starting on the groundwork etc.. You're right about it being big for Gerst. I have full faith in them though, this is how the two big guys must have started, once SW7's up and brilliant, Gerst will be on the heels of B&M and Intamin.

 

[Harv]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

I disagree that this is a large project.

Before I get shot down for taking this out of context, that is exactly what I intend to do. If your point doesn't stand up (especially such a bold one), it simply doesn't stand up and no amount of rambling on can justify it.

How anybody can argue that a £20 million, mega-inverting coaster is not a major project is beyond me. It is the greatest theme park project in Britain, ever - one of the greatest in Europe, too! I simply cannot understand your logic.

There have only been 4 other SW projects built, and I would say this is equally, if not more challenging than all them.

---

I don't like to slate posts like that, but all this arguing is ridiculous. Honestly, it's like mature enthusiasts have been turned into a bunch of squabbling children! I understand that it's frustrating being kept in the dark and speculation is bound to run riot, but please try and keep to sensible debating as some of the recent posts have made for nothing but nonsensical reading. Sorry, but somebody had to say it!

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

All of the above relates to Alton. Alton were the ones who set their own time constraints with putting in the planning and starting on the groundwork etc.. You're right about it being big for Gerst. I have full faith in them though, this is how the two big guys must have started, once SW7's up and brilliant, Gerst will be on the heels of B&M and Intamin.

More sense from the CupCakeMonster! Eat more cupcakes people, they must be good for your brains ;D

How on earth do Gerst think they can compete if they cannot complete this on time? That of course, is if they have not been given something unrealistic to complete of course! B&M did it, Intamin did it, both with big challenges. This is a test of their mettle, of their quality, and ability to mix it with the big boys, if they've been given the appropriate support and resources of course.

A Gerst, is the perfect foil to the huge B&Ms and technically bonkers Intamins, but no matter how you look at this, SW7 does not compare to this, no matter how many different ways you try and word it, and it's on the same site!

(Thanks to TT)

It is beyond absurd to say this is equal or harder than Oblivion.

 

[Islander]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

I take it, then, that you didn't see the massive pit being dug for SW7, either in the flesh, or via a variety of photos taken for a variety of sites?

 

[CupCakeMonster]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

I take it, then, that you didn't see the massive pit being dug for SW7, either in the flesh, or via a variety of photos taken for a variety of sites?

The point is that the pit isn't anywhere near as big a structural task. It might be about the same (I don't know, this is a guess) surface area for both pits. BUT digging a deep and thin hole, is a lot more challenging that digging an (in comparison) shallow and wide 'hole'.

 

[Islander]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

I take it, then, that you didn't see the massive pit being dug for SW7, either in the flesh, or via a variety of photos taken for a variety of sites?

The point is that the pit isn't anywhere near as big a structural task. It might be about the same (I don't know, this is a guess) surface area for both pits. BUT digging a deep and thin hole, is a lot more challenging that digging an (in comparison) shallow and wide 'hole'.

Like I said, though, did you actually see it? It may not quite be Oblivion depths, but it really isn't far off, and of course the surface area is much, much bigger. It could in no way be described as 'shallow', not even in comparison.

 

[Rob]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

A Gerst, is the perfect foil to the huge B&Ms and technically bonkers Intamins, but no matter how you look at this, SW7 does not compare to this, no matter how many different ways you try and word it, and it's on the same site!

Just to clarify, it is not on the same site. The site refers to where the coaster/project is. Therefore the site of SW7 is where the formal BH tent stood and the land going up to the toilet blocks. If Blivvy and SW7 shared the same site, they would overlap. This is how site is defined in terms of planning. Therefore SW7 still has its site specific challenges of which there are many. Also it is possible that one of these challenges was carrying out the SW7 groundwork so close to Blivvy's hole without disturbing it, it may not have been a problem at all but I'm sure it was something they had to think about.

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

No one, at any point, is going to convince me that this project is equal to the challenges they faced with Oblivion as prime example.

For a start, my phone now uses more powerful computers, than would have been used to design Oblivion, building technology, 15 years more experience of building rollercoasters around the world which have since reached utterly ridiculous (brilliant at times) levels.

I am sure Oblivion would be far easier to build nowadays, but to suggest that a 15 year old project of that magnitude, is equal or as some are even saying, easier to build than SW7?

I can't even begin to get my head around that!

EDIT: And like I say, I am not saying it will not be challenging, or have it's problems - this is about it's relationship to other projects, and how they were managed and still opened on time, despite in the biggest case, far, far inferior technology available!

I will continue to give respect that is due, to those individuals who achieved things that were phenomenal, and indeed, would still grace any park in the world!

 

[CupCakeMonster]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Like I said, though, did you actually see it? It may not quite be Oblivion depths, but it really isn't far off, and of course the surface area is much, much bigger. It could in no way be described as 'shallow'.

Yes... I have seen it. Both in the flesh (or mud?), and via photos. Both showed me that it is Nowhere near as deep as Oblivion's hole. Let us refer back to the photo of Oblivion's hole...

(Thanks to TT)

If SW7's pit is anywhere near as deep as that. I want to know which pit you've been looking at, because it definitely isn't the same one as I have been.

And I did say

(in comparison)

when referring to it being shallow. I still wouldn't call it deep though, even if we weren't comparing it to Oblivion's.

 

[LewisNavex]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

A number of reasons could be listed to why it may be delayed (Remember that we still don't have solid evidence on). I think it's wrong to start pointing the finger. It could be because of weather? Britain has been like the Amazon Rainforrest this winter.

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

If SW7's pit is anywhere near as deep as that. I want to know which pit you've been looking at, because it definitely isn't the same one as I have been.
And I did say

(in comparison)

when referring to it being shallow. I still wouldn't call it as deep though, even if we weren't comparing it to Oblivion's.

Hahaha that made me laugh ;D - like we haven't seen the pictures or the site!

I heard rumours they dug down so far on Oblivion, they actually ended up in an Ozzies back garden ;D

Come on guys, seriously here, it is one thing debating levels of difficulty, putting them into context, but comparing SW7 pit with the virtual earth core tunneling of Oblivion is just ludicrous.

I think the people who designed Oblivion deserve a wee bit more credit and respect than that for starters.

 

[GaryH]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Love how it gets so heated when people dont even know for sure it is delayed. Heck, the whole track structure could easily be put up by the end of January, testing can take place all of Feb while landscaping work goes on around the site, the station will go up in no time and the queue line paths laid in a week.

I can also see where The Man is coming from when he says this isn't a large project. Yes its a large investment for the park, but in terms of Nemesis where they had to blast out the rocks around the site, plumb in waterfalls, and Oblivion where they had to spend £6m on that hole and get the World First technology right, and at a point when technology wasn't as advanced as now, then yes I can see where he is coming from. Ultimately this is just a Eurofighter but with a few more bits added.

Its in big project in terms of what's going on at Alton at the moment, its not the biggest project they have embarked upon, and its not the biggest coaster project which has taken place in Europe, so I can see why The Man is saying in the general schema of things its not a huge project, and I can also see why others would think it is.

Think some people need to calm down a bit. Its just a ride, and unless anyone tells us otherwise, countdown timer or not, the thing is still on time.

 

[Jonathan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

I've avoided posting in here until now, but I can't hold it off any longer.

This project is frankly huge - bigger than anything we've seen for a long time. When the plans were published a year ago tomorrow, I think most people began to understand just how big it was. When the NoLimits recreation was made, this idea was realised even more. Now that the pit has been dug and the ride has gone vertical, it's amazing to see just how big the project is. The size of the pit is huge - and yes, I have seen it in person, before you ask, but this was two months ago from the top of Blivvy. As others have rightly pointed out, this £20m ride is undoubtedly the biggest project that Gerstlauer have ever undertaken. £20m for the ride, building the station and maintenance buildings, large elements of theming which will prove central to the ride, a potential secret element, the demolition of the Black Hole tent...It's massive. And frankly, I fail to see how anybody can say that this project isn't a large one.

As I stated earlier, the fact that SW7 now looks likely to be delayed isn't too much of a worry. Yes, I'm disappointed that it may not be open as planned, but after the PR disaster with Terry, I'd rather have a completed ride and wait for it than have another potential Terry situation.

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Exactly GaryH, context.

It is arguably as Sammy pointed out, the biggest thing Gerst have undertaken, and competition is fantastic so we need them to succeed for the benefit of coaster design in general - and if Alton have given them the stage, to create something beyond their normal then fantastic once again!

I will however, be massively frustrated, if arguably the most simple of the SW designs becomes the one that is delayed.

I said in a couple of my posts though, this is still speculation, and I hope it works out for them and that it indeed does open on time. Unless something unexpected has occurred, there is absolutely no reason for it not to, given the prior examples of Alton Tower's SW standard.

This should be the very height of UK installations, that sets a standard, in both proficiency, and delivery, if Alton Towers does not retain that moniker, then questions should be answered as they are supposedly the window to the UK Theme Park market.

No excuses.

 

[Tom]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

The indoor section is going to contain millions of pounds worth of elements/features. The project is at least as complex as TH13TEEN was. It seems that complexity is what is being debated here, not literal size.

 

[CupCakeMonster]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Yes, I at least was talking 'large' on the terms of the complexity over-all, not on set individual parts... as every coaster is more complex in one set section, but they can't all be more complex than each other... So I was talking Over-all.

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

The indoor section is going to contain millions of pounds worth of elements/features. The project is at least as complex as TH13TEEN was. It seems that complexity is what is being debated here, not literal size.

If you are right Tom, I will be very happy to say - wow, they were doing something monumental here, that I did not recognise! I have not seen evidence to suggest millions of pounds of indoor features and elements - that's a big statement you make there, comparing it to the complexity of SW6.

If SW7 has loads of crazy, complex, indoor section technology I will very, very happily stand in that queue #corrected!! ;D