[The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation

[Dar]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

But Oblivion is just a straight drop into a big hole. Once the tunnel was dug and the track was laid, it would have been a piece of cake.

You can't just forget about the hole, that is the essence of the ride, plus wasn't it at least a full years construction just for the hole?

Quite possibly, but it's a just hole. None of this massive new technology being shouted about. Most of the budget would have gone on the hole, what with very little track to pay for.

But Oblivion is just a straight drop into a big hole. Once the tunnel was dug and the track was laid, it would have been a piece of cake.

Not true.

Oblivion was the world's first Dive Coaster, that took years to develop, so you have new track, a new ride system, the shuttle system in the station, building up and then a monumental sized hole - pretty much none of this had ever been done before.

Pretty much everything on Oblivion was new, not happy with that, they built about 100ft into the ground!! That's taller than many of this countries lift hills!

Oblivion was, and remains, a technical marvel. They not remotely comparable, especially if you factor in the resources around to build and design such monsters.

New track that is just bigger standard track - like SW7
I don't see how it could be a new ride system? It's just a sit down with special wheel bogies?
The shuttle system that is just tyre driven? A proximity sensor to tell when a car is in the right place - a technological marvel to rival that of today.

The hole is the only impressive thing, tech wise, about oblivion and even that's not that impressive away from rides.

Islander, I wonder if the shell is made of concrete with just a thin external covering?

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

TheMan, please could you explain to use why you are an industry expert when it comes to how difficult (or not) it is to build a coaster, or anything for that matter? Sure we can all speculate what may or may not be difficult or challenging, and can compare to previous projects. But you appear to have concrete evidence that SW7 is not anywhere near as difficult to build as previous SWs. I and I'm sure many others would love to know the reasons behind this, something more than "the hole's not as big" or "it's not technologically advanced".

Equally, I could ask you to prove why it is. I have said everything is speculation, and indeed if my point proves to incorrect, I will happily admit as so - I am using some logic, and common sense, and family background of high level construction.

If you want me to start throwing around family members names etc, I will not do that in a public forum, and I'm not of a mind that will be bothered what anybodies opinions of that are.

Do I have direct links to SW7? No, not as far as I am aware, though I have found out in the past that relatives have been around projects I did not realise, so I most certainly wouldn't rule it out.

Let's put it this way, they were working at Thorpe Park long before ride ops were even born.

Regardless, I proclaim to know no more than anyone else, and no one else has offered up contrary construction evidence to show how this is harder than designing an entire new ride system, design, 100ft down tunnel etc 15 years earlier.

I also didn't say it was not technically advanced, I am comparing it to what was done in the past, in a contextual sense, as I have made clear multiple times now.

 

[CupCakeMonster]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

maybe there was issues with the ground or something of similar ilk.

Would they not be able to check that before? At the BH tent-end they obviously would have been able to. But, surely there must have been some way to test the rest of the ground before choosing that spot? You'd think it'd be one of the things they'd do, seeing whether the site can actually be used to construct on. Or that they would discover this earlier, and have not put the opening day so early.

is there really any point in continuing this frankly dull argument?

It's discussion... I'm sorry if anybody see's it as an argument. But, I personally see it as discussion, which forgive me if I'm wrong, is surely what forums are about?

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Think the salient point is that only two people are saying that, whilst everyone else disagrees vehemently.

Actually, there are now 4 of us. I would not expect that number to decrease either.

I will ask every one of you to stand between Oblivion and SW7 and say, out loud, in public, that SW7 represents a far more technical achievement than Oblivion or Nemesis did, of it's time.

I will stand next to Oblivion and continue to laud it, as one of the greatest coaster achievements ever built.

Alton set that standard high! That should be applauded, not derided, or made out to be less than it is because it no longer suits your present argument!

You are arguing against Oblivion, being a truly world class marvel of an attraction, to equal this in real terms, SW7 must be one of the greatest technical coasters of it's time in the world!!

SW6 overhype, engage!

 

[Harv]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Why do people continue to believe that this isn't on the scale of other SW projects?

Sure, Gert track is fairly to erect, but it's not exactly Airfix. The track length more than compensates for this and the compact nature, combined with complex inversions and tricky landscaping make this project significantly more difficult than Air, and probably more so than Th13teen or Oblivion.

You don't have to have a degree in engineering to see that this project is huge and deserves respect in the sense that it should and almost certainly will be delayed come opening day.

 

[Dar]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

I'm arguing that Oblivion wasn't a technical "marvel", it was just a new thing that hadn't been done yet. I'll happily say that SW7 represents a greater OR EQUAL technological achievement then Oblivion did of it's time. There really wasn't that much technologically new with Oblivion. AIR was a massively different story that took years to properly research and design. But Oblivion is just a B&M sit down that went steeper than other rides at the time.

 

[CupCakeMonster]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Sure, Gert track is fairly to erect, but it's not exactly Airfix.

I don't know whether you were going to put 'quick' or 'easy', so i'll put a response for both.

1.'Quick'
I never mentioned anything about the speed, plus if this is true then surely it means it will be up in time for opening.

2.'Easy'
Track is track, In terms of difficulty, it's the same for all manufacturers in my view.

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

I guess we will know Dar once it opens properly, and when we can get more technical details than we have presently - and even, more of an understanding as to what problems may or may not be occurring at present.

I respect this coaster, I cannot wait to ride it and see it in all it's glory, I believe it will be fantastic and one of the best in the UK - depending on how far they push it, it may creep into Europe's best.

Oblivion however was world class, and remains so today, there is not a Dive coaster that has topped it, and that is rare for a new coaster style. I think SW7 will be phenomenal I really genuinely do, I also fully respect the challenges it will face in what is never a normal construction environment at the towers.

I however, am hard pressed to believe, that with this coaster we have a true world class marvel, which is without question, what Nemmy, Blivvy and (even though I'm not a fan) Air represented.

 

[Ian]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Personally I think it's fair to say SW7 is easily on par with Nemesis and Air in terms of construction challenge. Nemesis used a tried and tested system which already existed in other parks, and with regards to Air the track really wasn't anything massively different to the numerous B&M Inverted coasters which predate it. The challenge there came from perfecting the craft and takeoff system.

In terms of excavation wasn't the only real issue they faced with Oblivion the fact the hole filled a few times while building it (Deja vu?!)? When you look at the way they actually went about digging the hole though it wasn't really anything that revolutionary. Once they'd cast the concrete tunnel it was simply a case of filling it back in.

With SW7 on the other hand not only did they have to dig the pit in the first place, they also had to remove any traces that the Blackhole tent was there, which included breaking up all the foundations, they had to work around Oblivion's tunnel, they've had to work against the slope to ensure that no subsidence happens further up and damages Oblivion or other buildings, they had to build those huge retaining walls to hold the ground back, they've got to cram the track into the tight space, there's far more infrastructure in the park now than in 1997, which needs to be worked around, and not only that, they've got to suspend the rest of the ride, the ground, and a whole plaza over the track. In this instance the cut and cover technique is really quite complex. They haven't just got a straight forward tunnel to do (Which alpine workers have been creating for centuries), they've got to essentially construct a cavern and prop the floor up above it! That's quite an engineering challenge for the park

A lot of people seem to be assuming that the ride will be late due to Gerstlauer, or the contractors, but as Dave said who's to say that the order to stop work didn't come from a higher power? Possibly even higher than AT management? I doubt that both Gerstlauer and the contractors for the project would all put their reputations on the line like this. But they have to answer to Alton, and Alton have to answer to several other bodies. Who's to say something hasn't arrisen with the locals or the council?.. Anyone heard anything from Farley's favourite couple recently?..

 

[Maya]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Nemesis- very technically advanced for the time, used lots of new things never before seen. Years of planning
Oblivion- So much landscaping, as well as new cars, and of corse the drop. Yet again never before seen technicalities to get everything right.years of planning
Air- Again, new cars creating a compleatly new ride experience, with so much equipment and stuff that was very new and advanced. Years of planning.
Th13teen- Not so ngreat a coaster, however so much work had been put into the drop, that yet again had never been seen before.
SW7- Eurofighter with a big budget, still a lot vof landscaping, however for what we know at the moment, theres not much new as compared to the other SW's.
I have no doubt in saying SW7 will be good, but in technical terms, its not that 'big'

 

[John]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

There's still an awful lot we don't know about SW7. At this point, making any attempt to judge the scale of the project relative to previous secret weapons is pure speculation.

 

[CoasterCrazyChris]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

We're getting a Eurofighter with good landscaping and interactional elements.

Accept that and you can't possibly be dissappointed on opening day (whenever that may be).

However, the conditions to create exceptional rides such as Nemesis and Oblivion do not exist in 2012/3.

 

[Harv]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Sure, Gert track is fairly to erect, but it's not exactly Airfix.

I don't know whether you were going to put 'quick' or 'easy', so i'll put a response for both.

1.'Quick'
I never mentioned anything about the speed, plus if this is true then surely it means it will be up in time for opening.

2.'Easy'
Track is track, In terms of difficulty, it's the same for all manufacturers in my view.

My error, I was in a haste to post. I meant 'simple' to be honest, but I guess 'quick' fits what I was going to say, as I don't want to be pedantic. I did justify in my post, if you'd read it properly by stating all the other factors that overcompensated for the rate of track erection.

I wouldn't say it too loud.. they don't like opinions that aren't the same as their own

I like different opinions very much, it creates interesting discussion. I don't much for them when others seem so adamant in getting them across that they ruin any form of reasonable discussion, though.

 

[Joseph]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

I have to say this, but the SW7 project is probably more technical than Oblivion and Air put together. Just look at the plans: http://publicaccess.staffsmoorlands.gov.uk/upload/PublicAccess/proposedsiteplan%20(37877).PDF
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Does that plan not look confusing? To me it does, firstly there's the coaster layout itself which is tangled a twisted in and throughout itself.
Secondly there's the matter of the confusing supports we've seen in pictures, now there a damn mess!
Third and finally there's the station building, the terraforming and even the amount of theming that's going to be put into this attraction.
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Air had about four years of car design and loading research by John Wardley and Boliger & Malibard, but for SW7 that wasn't the case. Yeah they've made the track and cars bigger... But that's it! Which is pretty much the same thing they did to Oblivion back in '98.

SW7 is the largest coaster at the park, with probably the largest station building so in a technical construction (and whatever surprises we've all got in store) were getting a technical world beating rollercoaster.

 

[Joseph]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Nemesis- very technically advanced for the time, used lots of new things never before seen. Years of planning

That's not true the first B&M invert opened in 1992 at Six Flags Great America....

 

[CupCakeMonster]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Dictionary.com's definition of discussion

informal debate

And then of debate (incase there's any confusion in that)

a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints

 

[TheMan]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Who's to say something hasn't arrisen with the locals or the council?.. Anyone heard anything from Farley's favourite couple recently?..

That's true. Certainly not something I had considered up until this point. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that last minute concerns/objections could be thrown at the Tower's to at least obstruct the progress a little.

I hope not, there may be questions of organisation here potentially, but the one thing I wish above all else for Towers to succeed in this venture.

I like different opinions very much, it creates interesting discussion. I don't much for them when others seem so adamant in getting them across that they ruin any form of reasonable discussion, though.

I'm certain this can be most certainly levied at both sides of this particular discussion.

I have no issues at all, with people having opposing views, I have enjoyed getting stuck into this discussion, and see it as nothing but that, regardless of whom I do or do not agree with.

 

[GaryH]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Can I just make the point that the removal of the black hole tent is hardly a huge achievement or technical masterpiece of sw7. The tent was empty and is just a tent in a light steel frame. As for the foundations.... Anyone with a jack hammer on the back of a JCB could smash that up in no time..... Which I believe they did.

I think people are getting confused between how technical a ride is and how complex it is. Air for example was highly technical due to the systems and mechanics. The actual ride in terms of track wasnt very complex. SW7 is a euro fighter, its not massively technical, but the track layout is complex what with all the the overlapping sections of track. However, a track can be erected in next to no time, and as for the SW7 home, unless there were other photos, it didn't look that big or deep to me.... Sorry but it didn't!!

 

[CupCakeMonster]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

Who's to say something hasn't arrisen with the locals or the council?.. Anyone heard anything from Farley's favourite couple recently?..

But, surely then Towers wouldn't have let Gerst have so long at home?

I still think it can be ready in time though, providing they start again soon

 

[Maya]

Re: Secret Weapon 7 Discussion Continued

I have to say this, but the SW7 project is probably more technical than Oblivion and Air put together. Just look at the plans

For the time, air and oblivion were very technical, 10, 15 years agothey didnt hsve rollercoaster resources like they do now, so much more research was put in, to discover the things people think as 'normal rollercoaster parts and experiences' now. Oblivion and air created another future path for rollercoastefs, and I just can't see sw7 doing that.