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[The Smiler] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
DiogoJ42
TS Member
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
I've assumed from the start that it will use Saw style twin loading, and hold the second train at some kind of pre show (probably just a TV showing a video) between the station and the underground section. It's the only way to ensure the trains sync up... That was one of the reasons the old Schwarzkopf plan was abandoned.
I've assumed from the start that it will use Saw style twin loading, and hold the second train at some kind of pre show (probably just a TV showing a video) between the station and the underground section. It's the only way to ensure the trains sync up... That was one of the reasons the old Schwarzkopf plan was abandoned.
pluk
TS Member
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
Sorry if I'm missing something here, but isn't throughput easier to guess at than this?
It doesn't matter what the duration of ride is (as each train will take the same amount of time to complete) or how long load/unload takes (as there has to be a presumption the station will be designed to maximise throughput), it only matters how frequently a train can dispatch and that in turn is determined by how long (in time) is the biggest gap between brake blocks, allowing the following train to progress.
Taking a nice round number of a maximum 30 seconds between brakes (roughly as predicted in your recreation) then each time the train in front gets 30 seconds away, and therefore through the next breaks, a train should leave the station. If the trains hold 16, and 120 trains can leave an hour, the maximum throughput would be 1920 (16 x 120).
What the durations of those sections really are, and if there is another section with a longer duration, is anyones guess. But they don't seem bad numbers to work off.
I would predict at any one time you would have one train in each of
-indoor section
-lift hill one (only if not a rolling launch, which I think it will be)
-first half of ride
-vertical lift hill (again, only if this is not some sort rolling vertical launch, probably not)
-second half of ride
-plus however many trains in the station they think is necessary to create a buffer to allow everything to run smoothly, I'd guess at three/four. And if there is some sort of trick track element then one in there too.
So with various combinations of those scenarios that would be 7, 8 or 9 trains. It would also mean, if there is no vertical launch (and maybe even if there is) you would not be duelling with the car infront/behind, but actually with the one infront/behind that, with one in the middle doing the lift hill.
Basically, I see this running pretty much the same as Saw, and with roughly the same amount of trains. But each train is twice as big and each block section is a bit longer, so the throughput won't be double Saws (as it would be if you put double sized cars in its track) due to the slight increase in dispatch time (because of block duration), but it won't be a very long way off it.
Nemesis94 said:
Sorry if I'm missing something here, but isn't throughput easier to guess at than this?
It doesn't matter what the duration of ride is (as each train will take the same amount of time to complete) or how long load/unload takes (as there has to be a presumption the station will be designed to maximise throughput), it only matters how frequently a train can dispatch and that in turn is determined by how long (in time) is the biggest gap between brake blocks, allowing the following train to progress.
Taking a nice round number of a maximum 30 seconds between brakes (roughly as predicted in your recreation) then each time the train in front gets 30 seconds away, and therefore through the next breaks, a train should leave the station. If the trains hold 16, and 120 trains can leave an hour, the maximum throughput would be 1920 (16 x 120).
What the durations of those sections really are, and if there is another section with a longer duration, is anyones guess. But they don't seem bad numbers to work off.
I would predict at any one time you would have one train in each of
-indoor section
-lift hill one (only if not a rolling launch, which I think it will be)
-first half of ride
-vertical lift hill (again, only if this is not some sort rolling vertical launch, probably not)
-second half of ride
-plus however many trains in the station they think is necessary to create a buffer to allow everything to run smoothly, I'd guess at three/four. And if there is some sort of trick track element then one in there too.
So with various combinations of those scenarios that would be 7, 8 or 9 trains. It would also mean, if there is no vertical launch (and maybe even if there is) you would not be duelling with the car infront/behind, but actually with the one infront/behind that, with one in the middle doing the lift hill.
Basically, I see this running pretty much the same as Saw, and with roughly the same amount of trains. But each train is twice as big and each block section is a bit longer, so the throughput won't be double Saws (as it would be if you put double sized cars in its track) due to the slight increase in dispatch time (because of block duration), but it won't be a very long way off it.
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
This is actually how I programmed the No Limits recreation to work. If you look in the background of some of the shorts where cars are duelling, you can also see cars ascending the two lift-hills. This was incredibly complicated to time, and also led to my aforementioned queuing of cars at different points. For example, the cars had to be held 16 seconds before the first lift-hill and an agonising 22 seconds before the second! But even with this set up I could only (just) despatch an 8-seat car every 30 seconds.
My other reason for thinking there will only be four trains is where they would queue if there is a ride stop (or delay in dispatching a train for whatever reason). With all coasters there are usually enough blocks in and around the station to 'park' all the trains, without having one stuck out mid-circuit somewhere. (Can you think of any coaster that doesn't? Saw for example can park 6 trains inside the station, and the other 2 on the break track immediately before)
But looking at SW7 and given that the trains will be at least twice as long, you could probably get:
two trains in the station,
one on the transfer track,
one on the final break run.
So if there were more than four trains and there was a ride-stop (for example they need to delay a despatch due to a disabled guest, or just a general ride error), one train would be stuck out mid-circuit somewhere. I'm not sure what the full Health and Safety regulations are but I'm not sure this would be permitted.
pluk said:
This is actually how I programmed the No Limits recreation to work. If you look in the background of some of the shorts where cars are duelling, you can also see cars ascending the two lift-hills. This was incredibly complicated to time, and also led to my aforementioned queuing of cars at different points. For example, the cars had to be held 16 seconds before the first lift-hill and an agonising 22 seconds before the second! But even with this set up I could only (just) despatch an 8-seat car every 30 seconds.
My other reason for thinking there will only be four trains is where they would queue if there is a ride stop (or delay in dispatching a train for whatever reason). With all coasters there are usually enough blocks in and around the station to 'park' all the trains, without having one stuck out mid-circuit somewhere. (Can you think of any coaster that doesn't? Saw for example can park 6 trains inside the station, and the other 2 on the break track immediately before)
But looking at SW7 and given that the trains will be at least twice as long, you could probably get:
two trains in the station,
one on the transfer track,
one on the final break run.
So if there were more than four trains and there was a ride-stop (for example they need to delay a despatch due to a disabled guest, or just a general ride error), one train would be stuck out mid-circuit somewhere. I'm not sure what the full Health and Safety regulations are but I'm not sure this would be permitted.
pluk
TS Member
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
We know that throughput is one of the major considerations Alton take with any new instillation, they wouldn't allow the number of cars that can fit on on the track in the station to be the defining factor in throughput, it will be the physical capacity of the track, which all comes down to blocks. I'm pretty sure they'd have taken the size of the train into consideration in the design of the station and brake runs. It might also explain the strangely long flat straight preceding the vertical lift, which also happens to be right by the station building.
As for the middle section, to keep it flowing a slight pause with a video (a la saw) with then about 15 seconds of lift hill whilst the car in front completes would sounds about right.
I'm sure they haven't gone to the bother of designing bigger cars just so they can dispatch half as frequently, they've done it to increase throughput from Saw, even if it does allow the dispatch to be slightly less frequent due to bigger block sections without destroying the throughput. If there is something we don't know about that means a train can not dispatch approximately every 30 seconds, like a trick track element that lasts 45 seconds or the recreation being wildly inaccurate, then yes, the throughput will be considerably lower than I've guessed. But it will not be lower because there are not enough trains, that is absolutely not how they would have designed it. When the car in front is clear of the first block a train will be ready to leave the station, that would certainly be their plan.
Nemesis94 said:
We know that throughput is one of the major considerations Alton take with any new instillation, they wouldn't allow the number of cars that can fit on on the track in the station to be the defining factor in throughput, it will be the physical capacity of the track, which all comes down to blocks. I'm pretty sure they'd have taken the size of the train into consideration in the design of the station and brake runs. It might also explain the strangely long flat straight preceding the vertical lift, which also happens to be right by the station building.
As for the middle section, to keep it flowing a slight pause with a video (a la saw) with then about 15 seconds of lift hill whilst the car in front completes would sounds about right.
I'm sure they haven't gone to the bother of designing bigger cars just so they can dispatch half as frequently, they've done it to increase throughput from Saw, even if it does allow the dispatch to be slightly less frequent due to bigger block sections without destroying the throughput. If there is something we don't know about that means a train can not dispatch approximately every 30 seconds, like a trick track element that lasts 45 seconds or the recreation being wildly inaccurate, then yes, the throughput will be considerably lower than I've guessed. But it will not be lower because there are not enough trains, that is absolutely not how they would have designed it. When the car in front is clear of the first block a train will be ready to leave the station, that would certainly be their plan.
smudge
TS Member
[SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
Pluk- you are completely correct & this is what I was trying to explain in my first post, regardless of how many trains they have, How long the ride is etc, throughput is calculated by how often a train can be dispatched. And as you say, IF the longest gap between blocks is 30s then you have 36 ppm.
It doesn't even matter if you had 10 trains queuing for the lift.
Pluk- you are completely correct & this is what I was trying to explain in my first post, regardless of how many trains they have, How long the ride is etc, throughput is calculated by how often a train can be dispatched. And as you say, IF the longest gap between blocks is 30s then you have 36 ppm.
It doesn't even matter if you had 10 trains queuing for the lift.
ThemeParkJack
TS Member
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
I highly agree with Pluk.
I highly agree with Pluk.
Dave
TS Founding Member
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
I'm guessing at a throughput better than Rita but not as high as Th13teen, looking at the station building they will only likely get one car loading at a time and there is no hold point like on Saw for a 2 train dispatch. It's not practical to load a car any faster than 45 sec so my bet will be somewhere around the 1200p/hr mark.
I'm guessing at a throughput better than Rita but not as high as Th13teen, looking at the station building they will only likely get one car loading at a time and there is no hold point like on Saw for a 2 train dispatch. It's not practical to load a car any faster than 45 sec so my bet will be somewhere around the 1200p/hr mark.
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
By that logic a coaster that has one train (seating 20) which can be dispatched in thirty seconds, would have a throughput of 40 a minute. That's completely illogical as the loaded train needs to complete the ride circuit and be unloaded/loaded again before despatch. A crude example I know, but an adequate counterexample. So the number of trains a park buys does affect capacity.
In full, throughput is affected by:
1) Unloading/loading/despatch time.
2) Longest block-time.
3) Capacity of Trains.
4) Number of Trains.
Bare in mind that not all coasters have the highest number of trains possible. Nemesis for example, could quite easily run with 3 trains (1 in station, 1 on pre-lift & lift-hill, 1 on circuit & breaks). It has 2 because this is the optimum for throughput without the queuing of trains along the track.
Also worth Noting, Nemesis has two 32-seater trains. Yet Nemesis Inferno (built 9-years later) has two 28-seater trains. A design decision was obviously taken that Inferno didn't need as high a capacity as Nemesis (despite having the longer ride-time).
SW7 will have the optimum number of trains for the blocking system. I am of the opinion that it will be four (five at a push), with a throughput of approximately 1200pph (similar to Th13teen). So I'm going to leave this discussion here now, and we'll just have to wait and see how many trains there turns out to be.
smudge said:
By that logic a coaster that has one train (seating 20) which can be dispatched in thirty seconds, would have a throughput of 40 a minute. That's completely illogical as the loaded train needs to complete the ride circuit and be unloaded/loaded again before despatch. A crude example I know, but an adequate counterexample. So the number of trains a park buys does affect capacity.
In full, throughput is affected by:
1) Unloading/loading/despatch time.
2) Longest block-time.
3) Capacity of Trains.
4) Number of Trains.
Bare in mind that not all coasters have the highest number of trains possible. Nemesis for example, could quite easily run with 3 trains (1 in station, 1 on pre-lift & lift-hill, 1 on circuit & breaks). It has 2 because this is the optimum for throughput without the queuing of trains along the track.
Also worth Noting, Nemesis has two 32-seater trains. Yet Nemesis Inferno (built 9-years later) has two 28-seater trains. A design decision was obviously taken that Inferno didn't need as high a capacity as Nemesis (despite having the longer ride-time).
SW7 will have the optimum number of trains for the blocking system. I am of the opinion that it will be four (five at a push), with a throughput of approximately 1200pph (similar to Th13teen). So I'm going to leave this discussion here now, and we'll just have to wait and see how many trains there turns out to be.
pluk
TS Member
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
Well, yes it would. And that ride is Big Thunder Mountain at DLRP with an hourly (and supposedly regularly achieved) 2,400 riders an hour. Most UK sized traditionally 'trained' coasters don't really have blocks as such, the first brake run is back in the station, so the circuit time is the defining factor. In the case of Nemesis they could run three, and the throughput would increase, but to achieve that realistically there would have to be split off/on loading and a lot of staff to get the train ready for dispatch in time as the weakest link at the moment is the loading time.
We will indeed have to wait and see, but I am next to certain that 4 or 5 trains would not be enough as realistically, with two in the station, that would leave you with only two out on the circuit, covering both lift hills, both outdoor at speed sections and whatever is going on inside.
I have no doubt that the 1,920 figure is too high as there is nearly no way to have it running that tight with the trains entering and leaving their blocks, there is a domino effect along the track which inevitably means there will be a safety margin in the tightness of the timing. Saw does indeed have a train leave roughly every 30 seconds, and the block size is something like 22 seconds.
Nemesis94 said:
Well, yes it would. And that ride is Big Thunder Mountain at DLRP with an hourly (and supposedly regularly achieved) 2,400 riders an hour. Most UK sized traditionally 'trained' coasters don't really have blocks as such, the first brake run is back in the station, so the circuit time is the defining factor. In the case of Nemesis they could run three, and the throughput would increase, but to achieve that realistically there would have to be split off/on loading and a lot of staff to get the train ready for dispatch in time as the weakest link at the moment is the loading time.
We will indeed have to wait and see, but I am next to certain that 4 or 5 trains would not be enough as realistically, with two in the station, that would leave you with only two out on the circuit, covering both lift hills, both outdoor at speed sections and whatever is going on inside.
I have no doubt that the 1,920 figure is too high as there is nearly no way to have it running that tight with the trains entering and leaving their blocks, there is a domino effect along the track which inevitably means there will be a safety margin in the tightness of the timing. Saw does indeed have a train leave roughly every 30 seconds, and the block size is something like 22 seconds.
smudge
TS Member
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
I dont want to to carry this on, but please re-read my point. Relevant information highlighted.
I take on board your comments though, & agree that you will be nearer the mark with 1200pph. Although the theoretical throughput, regardless, is how often a train can dispatched...
EDIT: & obviously how many people on the train
Anything else is irrelevant.
Nemesis94 said:
I dont want to to carry this on, but please re-read my point. Relevant information highlighted.
I take on board your comments though, & agree that you will be nearer the mark with 1200pph. Although the theoretical throughput, regardless, is how often a train can dispatched...
EDIT: & obviously how many people on the train
Anything else is irrelevant.
alee298
TS Member
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
Something just hit me about the rides themeing, it is being built on the old black hole site right? I think it may be themed around the black hole or the minstry of joy. It is just a thought.
Something just hit me about the rides themeing, it is being built on the old black hole site right? I think it may be themed around the black hole or the minstry of joy. It is just a thought.
cotda
TS Member
Re: [SW7] Construction Updates and Ride Speculation
Isn't a guestimated throughput of only 1,300 not great, considering this will be the most major coaster installed at Towers recently? Also judging by the quality so far and spread of marketing, this is gonna pull a lot of people!
Isn't a guestimated throughput of only 1,300 not great, considering this will be the most major coaster installed at Towers recently? Also judging by the quality so far and spread of marketing, this is gonna pull a lot of people!
