Scottish Independence yes or no?

[BigT]

So the countdown has begun to the referendum about whether Scotland should become an independent country or not.

What does everyone think? Should they go it alone? Could they manage? Or would they be needing a bail out in a few years time?

Personally I don't think it would be as easy for them as Alex Salmon makes out, for a start Spain will be very resistant to them joining the EU as it opens a can of worms for them with regards to Catalonia.
Then there are the finances, at the moment they are subsidised by the rest of the uk via the Barnet formula.
Alex Salmon is counting on the oil money but this isn't going to last much longer and then there's the argument over who actually has rights to it.

The rest of the world wants to breakdown barriers so why are the Scots so keen on putting them back up?
I still think majority will see sense when it comes to the referendum though and vote no, if not we in the rest of the UK will be forever stuck with a Tory government that's for sure.

 

[Tom]

They're not calling for independence, what they really want is 'Independence Lite'.

If Scotland wants Independence, then it should have to close its borders, set up its own central bank, use its own internet domain, have its own head of state and armed forces.

What's the SNP is proposing is a joke, they shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose what aspects of freedom they want.

I don't think enough people will be stupid enough to vote for it anyway.

 

[Sam]

The rest of the world wants to breakdown barriers so why are the Scots so keen on putting them back up?

Yeah, err, that's not actually true. The number of countries in the world is always rising. There have been 29 new nations formed since 1990. The most recent being South Sudan in 2011, Kosovo in 2008, Montenegro in 2006 and the breakup of the USSR. The reunification of Germany was an anomaly, the trend is heading towards more countries and more borders.

 

[Sam]

If Scotland wants Independence, then it should have to close its borders, set up its own central bank, use its own internet domain, have its own head of state and armed forces.

Would you propose the same to Ireland, who we share open borders with? What about all the countries that share a head of state with us such as Canada and Australia, should they be forced to lose that?

I presume you're in favour of our withdrawal from the Common Travel Area and Queen Elizabeth II's resignation as Head of State of fifteen nations, presuming that you favour consistency.

 

[Tom]

No, if they want to be a real country they can be as per France, Belgium, Italy whoever else in Europe. Still have passport checks as you cross the border etc. My point is that they are not asking for independence as per any country in the world.

 

[AstroDan]

No, if they want to be a real country they can be as per France, Belgium, Italy whoever else in Europe. Still have passport checks as you cross the border etc. My point is that they are not asking for independence as per any country in the world.

The only reason there are passport checks between Britain and the EU is as we are not part of the Schengen Zone. If you travel between France and Spain/Italy/Belgium/Germany etc. then you will not have to show passports.

I am not in favour of Scottish Independence myself, as I feel that the Scottish votership is too much of a political ally with my own views of a central government. If Scotland was to become an independent nation, then Britain would likely then be permanently centre right-right leaning, due to the massive right lean down south.

I also believe we are stronger together, and hope Scotland remains part of the Union.

 

[BigT]

The scary thing is for us the rest of the UK is I'm sure I heard Salmon say an Independent Scotland would not have immigration control and would welcome all comers.
If that's the case then we would have to have border checks otherwise it could leave us open to illegal immigration.

I think Tom has a point about Salmon wanting his cake and eating it, but I don't see an issue with the Queen being head of state either.
If they are to be independent then it should be true independence i.e. defence, bank, currency, police, NHS, social bill, power generation etc etc.

 

[TheMan]

Absolutely agree, if they want an independent state, then have one or shut up. None of this half arsed we will pick and choose which bits we want and leave the crap with you.

As both T's infer, defence, health, armed forces, etc etc. Sam your argument in that sense is crackers, since when do we pay for the Commonwealth's budget? Last time I checked we didn't pay for the Aussie army etc, and we know all too well, the "head of state" being the Ma'am means next to bugger all.

SNP are advocating "independence". If you are going to screw the rest of us over and leave the remainder of the "UK" bludgeoned by this God forsaken dinosaur of a party, then you take the bad with the good and stand PROPERLY by yourselves!

Cameron is rubbing his hands in glee at this!

 

[Sam]

No, if they want to be a real country they can be as per France, Belgium, Italy whoever else in Europe. Still have passport checks as you cross the border etc. My point is that they are not asking for independence as per any country in the world.

I'm sure the people of Ireland, who don't have passport checks when you cross the border from the UK, would be fascinated to hear that you don't consider them a 'real country'.

What Scotland want out of independence is a combination of the relationship many countries in the CTA, European Union and the Commonwealth already have with Britain, nothing particularly new.

I don't really think you understand your own point, or it just doesn't make much sense. If Scotland want to leave, you want to randomly just try and get revenge on them by being as uncooperative as possible?

 

[Sam]

The scary thing is for us the rest of the UK is I'm sure I heard Salmon say an Independent Scotland would not have immigration control and would welcome all comers.

Please do find me a source for Salmond saying that he would abolish all immigration control. I wouldn't bother though, because he never has and you just made that up.

 

[TheMan]

The thing that irritates me about debates at times on this forum, is when certain points are picked up on during a discussion and then held onto for absolute dear life! Even if, on the grand scale, it isn't actually that important or relevant to the wider points being made - it is detrimental.

In this regard I refer to Toms mention of passports, clearly an error, and something that is more of an opinion based on a broader context of facts. Clearly erroneous, we get it, it isn't important.

I am NOT so much referring to BigTs implications of what Salmond said/didn't say, because that does relate to tighter/looser border restrictions and is most certainly worthy of debate and deeper discussions.

I would just like to see true discussions of the meat and bones of the topic, rather than this tendency to gripe at what are often irrelevant, or even at times, insinuated and/or inferred meaning.

 

[Sam]

I would just like to see true discussions of the meat and bones of the topic, rather than this tendency to gripe at what are often irrelevant, or even at times, insinuated and/or inferred meaning.

How about people use facts, instead of literally just making things up to justify their views, as BigT did?

No proper discussion or debate can take place if people just make up facts and aren't called out on them. Fact-checking is important.

 

[Tom]

Sam, people are giving specific examples to reinforce the point, even if they are not strictly true, I find it extremely likely you understand the point that is being made.

The reality is that the SNP is not after true independence as per every other country in the world that is not the UK and I'd invite you to demonstrate how it is if you disagree.

 

[John]

It's an interesting question, and one I think a lot of people will be likely to make an emotional rather than rational response to.

A key issue seems to be the lack of clarity about the finer points of independence. The yes camp are accusing the no camp of scaremongering and the no camp accusing the yes camp of painting a simplified picture of nothing really changing. In reality people want to know whether they'll be better or worse off, and there don't seem to be any clear answers.

 

[Sam]

The reality is that the SNP is not after true independence as per every other country in the world that is not the UK and I'd invite you to demonstrate how it is if you disagree.

I've already said how I disagree (and I don't really mean 'disagree' in that it's my opinion, it's more that your 'reality' is demonstrably incorrect.) Every tie the SNP have proposed with the UK has precedent between other countries of the world. There is nothing in there that hasn't been linked between countries before that are generally considered to be 'independent'.

Currency union - this exists between all countries that use the Euro.

Open border - this exists between all countries in the Schengen zone, and between the UK and Ireland.

Head of state - The Queen is already head of fifteen other nations.

I'm almost certain that I can find other examples of anything else that you can find sourced evidence that the SNP have said they want to share with the UK.

 

[Tom]

Scottish Independence yes or no?

You're cherry picking individual aspects. I cannot think of a country that is 'independent' and has ALL of those things. None of the EU countries share a head of state and nowhere else (aside from the small overseas dependencies) uses sterling when they have retained Elizabeth.

Salmon's hand picked, custom-made idea of independence is a sham.

 

[Sam]

Re: Scottish Independence yes or no?

You're cherry picking individual aspects. I cannot think of a country that is 'independent' and has ALL of those things. None of the EU countries share a head of state and nowhere else (aside from the small overseas dependencies) uses sterling when they have retained Elizabeth.

Salmon's hand picked, custom-made idea of independence is a sham.

But the point is that there is nothing major that Scotland wants that other countries don't already have with Britain (apart from a currency union, though the massive currency union across the channel involving 18 countries all joined together makes this point moot).

As others have said, the head of state is symbolic. I see no indication that Salmon wants any closer ties than say, the ties between France and Germany. Or between the Netherlands and Belgium. I don't think anyone would describe the independence of Germany and France as a 'sham'.

You can have complete independence while choosing to cooperate and collaborate with other countries when it is in both of those country's interests. The essence of independence is that you have the authority to withdraw at any time, as France and Germany do from all their ties, and as Scotland and the UK would from any connections with each other.

If Scotland do choose to be independent, it will be in our interests both economically and socially to share many aspects of government with them. A shared currency and an open border for example will allow tourists to travel from one to the other as easily as they can now. In the interests of both nations. Your 'revenge' mentality would be very damaging to the newly-shrunken UK as well as to Scotland.

 

[Dave]

For a start Scotland is a country, the referendum isn't asking if it wants to be one. It's whether it would be a self governing country, really it's a referendum on whether Westminster remains it's sovereign parliament or not. There are no other provisos really on independence status than that, many countries share heads of state, currency unions and borders, something the British (English, Scottish, welsh) often find hard to understand due to our island mentality.

Do I agree with Scottish independence, not really and I think Salmond is making a lot of promises he can't keep and depending too much on oil to make it work. However I think it's extremely important that the debate is had and Scotland has it's say.

Really hope the union survives as I think it's a good thing but it's the right of all nations to decide. I think it's much better than having a situation such as Spain/ Catalonia where the larger nation refuses the will of a people to at least have a say.

 

[Meat Pie]

As for whether it would be better for Scotland? I'm undecided. I think the policy would certainly be more representative of the Scottish people, and therefore be more democratic, but I definitely see some concerning potential for economic losses.

 

[Plastic Person]

As for whether it would be better for Scotland? I'm undecided. I think the policy would certainly be more representative of the Scottish people, and therefore be more democratic, but I definitely see some concerning potential for economic losses.

Agreed, although I can completely understand why they want out given the current state of the UK government.